A good Post On the Deepwater Horizon Accident

Discuss life, the universe, and everything with other members of this site. Get to know your fellow polywell enthusiasts.

Moderators: tonybarry, MSimon

Skipjack
Posts: 5947
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Postby Skipjack » Thu May 06, 2010 9:29 am

via a modern magnetic influence torpedo


Since you are a military weapons tech, you should know that magnetic pistols to trigger torpedoes already existed during WW2.
I am not 100% sure about mines, but if they had them for torpedoes in WW2, they should have had them for mines in the Korea War at least.
Anyway, I said before that I may not be up to date on all this, but that multiple rather credible news sources had claimed that it could have been a mine.
And, it does not matter what "governments" say. It does not even matter what the US government says. The only government whos opinion matters at this time is the South Korean government.

JCee
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:32 am

Postby JCee » Thu May 06, 2010 6:46 pm

Skipjack wrote:
via a modern magnetic influence torpedo


Since you are a military weapons tech, you should know that magnetic pistols to trigger torpedoes already existed during WW2.
I am not 100% sure about mines, but if they had them for torpedoes in WW2, they should have had them for mines in the Korea War at least.
Anyway, I said before that I may not be up to date on all this, but that multiple rather credible news sources had claimed that it could have been a mine.



Magnetic torpedoes and mines did exist at the time but had reliability problems (especially the torpedoes). The magnetic sensor of a mine will not function after > 50+ years in a salt water environment. Plus after 50+ years I'm sure the power source is also long long long depleted even if they used one of Eestor's mythical EESU's. Now I'm sure running directly into a Magnetic Mine from the Korean War era might set it off but that would blow a hole in the ship not cleave it in half. Contact mines being generally unpowered are dangerous for a very long time but again they blow holes in ships not break the keel.

And, it does not matter what "governments" say. It does not even matter what the US government says. The only government whos opinion matters at this time is the South Korean government.


Actually the South Korean government says it was a Torpedo attack. New York Times: Ship Attack Shows South Korean Quandary Over How to Respond to North http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/26/world/asia/26korea.html After the forensic are finished (I expect it will take awhile to wrap up the investigation to allow for tempers to cool and people to forget) the North Korean cause will be quietly confirmed and various non military sanctions proposed and a North Korean Ship or Sub will mysteriously sink sometime over the next year.

FYI: Actually my knowledge of Torpedoes is my one of my weakest area of weapons tech knowledge and is public domain knowledge. EVERYTHING about torpedoes is Classified in the US Navy and it is Torpedoman's Mates that know about them the most and work on them and they never talk.


Just in http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jGM9ojV6z2poFe4b8ocJI3CCjg3w. "Aluminium fragments from a torpedo casing had been found"

ladajo
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast

Postby ladajo » Fri May 07, 2010 2:14 am

Mine strikes can cut a keel. You should read up on the Samuel B. Roberts. Great example.
Damage effect is primarily driven by weapon placement, be it a mine or torpedo. In the case of the Roberts, the hit was an almost perfect example of as good aplacement as you can get. The weapon detonated just aft of frame 250. On a Perry Class frigate, that places the weapon at the boundary of the two largest (engineering) spaces. Aux 2, and the main Engine Room. It also targets the most sensitive part of the ship, the two Gas Turbines are there, as well as the fuel feeds coming from Aux 2. Roberts keel was cut, the ship almost broke in two (in fact, more or less it did), if not for some emergency welding of braces, stringers, and even some stitching using steel cable, the ship would have physically broken in half. Note that the Perry Class is larger than the south korean corvette, and thus had the ability to absorb damage a little better. In the case of the Princeton, the closer mine went off from more to the side of the ship vice underneath. It is thought a good bit of the damage is the result of a sympathetic detonation off the bow, amplifying severe whipping.
The idea of modern heavy weight torpedoes is to blow the water out from under a combatant, and reverse stress the keel to break, as well as drive whipping for secondary damage effect throughout the ship. They do not actually hit the ship. Interestly enough, the weapons engineers over estimated the size of the charge required to get the effect, and instead, for the average combatant, a heavy wieght has enough pop to cut the ship vertically with proper placement. Since modern weapons place themselves, this is not a large challenge.
NORK uses several types of torpedoes, and depending on the type "used" would drive the terminal placement and corresponding damage. Also, the tactics used by the NORK submarine for the suppossed engagement would drive placement as well. Say for example they engaged with a wake homing weapon, this would put the weapon coming in from astern vice the beam, and place the weapon IVO the running gear upon proximity triggering. The idea of wake homers is a mobility kill at minimum, with total destruction a hoped for event (but not immediately likely). The whipping effect would be enhanced due to placement at one end of the hull, and this would also enhance mission kill probability of the engaged platform vice destruction. The evidence seen so far in photos could be either a mine or a torpedo. Although a beam shot torpedo is fairly archaic in these modern days of acoustic and wake homing torps.
Based on where the hit occured, I would bet on a mine first, torp second, and if it was a torp, a dumb one fired by a lucky and close boat with a contact fuse, or less likely, an acoustic set up for a proximity triggering (the former more likely by the photos I have seen). My money is on a mine, much less political risk, and still makes the point. The trick is, is there more than one mine placed, or was it a one off gamble? And, it also could very well have been a mine placed by a submarine. NORK likes that sort of thing.
It will come out eventually what the likely weapon really was. And yes, I agree, there is a good chance that a NORK combatant will "accidently" have a bad day down the road. Not the first time these kids have played tit for tat. Nor will it be the last.

Skipjack
Posts: 5947
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Postby Skipjack » Fri May 07, 2010 8:51 am

I think ladajo hits this very well. I also read that there was no radar or sonar contact discovered prior to the explosion, which also sounds a lot more like a mine than a torpedo.
Also, from the pictures, the SK ship looked like a smaller patrol craft. That means a corvette or even smaller (destroyer?).
I think that it does not take much to break a vessel like that in two.

Jccarlton
Posts: 1747
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:14 pm
Location: Southern Ct

Postby Jccarlton » Sun May 09, 2010 5:46 pm

Skipjack wrote:I think ladajo hits this very well. I also read that there was no radar or sonar contact discovered prior to the explosion, which also sounds a lot more like a mine than a torpedo.
Also, from the pictures, the SK ship looked like a smaller patrol craft. That means a corvette or even smaller (destroyer?).
I think that it does not take much to break a vessel like that in two.

The ship was a Corvette.

Jccarlton
Posts: 1747
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:14 pm
Location: Southern Ct

Postby Jccarlton » Sun May 09, 2010 5:58 pm

It looks like a clathate explosion.
http://dthreetechnology.blogspot.com/20 ... oleum.html
When materials go from liquid to gas the expansion factors are incredible and when a material, in this case methane is at the phase boundary, the expansion happens very quickly. More than likely in the well's case it was too quickly for the blowout preventer to respond and I suspect that when the blowout preventer is finally brought to the surface it will be found that the valves are bent open. That's the blowout preventer doesn't work.

MSimon
Posts: 14330
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Postby MSimon » Mon May 10, 2010 3:35 am

Betruger wrote:Greed is a single word for too many different flavors of the same thing. There's good and bad greed; I reckon Skipjack meant the latter. Foolish, excessive greed. Not greed the force multiplier.


Engineering always works on the margins. - What is the least material/effort that will produce the desired results. Sometimes you use too little and you get undesirable consequences. Sometimes you use too much and you get undesirable consequences. Most of the time you get close.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
Posts: 14330
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Postby MSimon » Mon May 10, 2010 3:38 am

Indeed. This must have been one of those language barrier things. In German "Gier" (greed) is almost always meant in a negative way. It has an animalistic, almost instinctual touch to it too. E.g. a carnivorous animal having "Gier" for food.


Happens in humans too. Greed for food is why we have agriculture. The greed of farmers is why food is abundant.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
Posts: 14330
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Postby MSimon » Mon May 10, 2010 6:37 am

Skipjack wrote:
via a modern magnetic influence torpedo


Since you are a military weapons tech, you should know that magnetic pistols to trigger torpedoes already existed during WW2.
I am not 100% sure about mines, but if they had them for torpedoes in WW2, they should have had them for mines in the Korea War at least.
Anyway, I said before that I may not be up to date on all this, but that multiple rather credible news sources had claimed that it could have been a mine.
And, it does not matter what "governments" say. It does not even matter what the US government says. The only government whos opinion matters at this time is the South Korean government.


Magnetic influence mines were common in WW2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_mine

Which led to the advent of degaussing coils. I slept next to the degaussing coil of my ship.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Skipjack
Posts: 5947
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Postby Skipjack » Mon May 10, 2010 8:35 am

Magnetic influence mines were common in WW2.


Thanks, I thought so, but was not sure anymore. My submarine fascination days have been a while ago. So I could not quite remember anymore.

DeltaV
Posts: 2245
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:05 am

Postby DeltaV » Mon May 10, 2010 7:47 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RDX

RDX was used by both sides in World War II.

BBC: 'Explosive traces found' in sunken South Korean warship

"It is true that RDX, a chemical substance used in making torpedoes, has been detected," Mr Kim told reporters.

"The possibility of a torpedo (attack) has increased, but it's too early to say anything."

A spokesman for the investigative team, Rear Adm Moon Byung-ok, said mines used RDX too, so further examination was necessary.

Diogenes
Posts: 6953
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm
Location: Ft. Sill Oklahoma

Postby Diogenes » Mon May 10, 2010 9:39 pm

This is really a stretch for this topic thread, but I thought this story was interesting and I thought some of you might find it interesting as well.


http://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/20 ... 0%99s-bad/

choff
Posts: 2410
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:02 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Postby choff » Tue May 11, 2010 1:10 am

Getting back to the original topic a bit. Maybe they could contain the oil leak by setting off a small tac nuke on the sea floor, right at the well head. Seal off the leak by melting the local sea floor into solid glass.
CHoff

hanelyp
Posts: 2237
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:50 pm

Postby hanelyp » Tue May 11, 2010 4:34 am

choff wrote:Getting back to the original topic a bit. Maybe they could contain the oil leak by setting off a small tac nuke on the sea floor, right at the well head. Seal off the leak by melting the local sea floor into solid glass.

I'd be concerned with fracturing the bedrock allowing more seepage from areas surrounding the well.

JCee
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:32 am

Postby JCee » Fri May 14, 2010 2:48 pm

Back on the South Korea Corvette that was sunk the South Korean government investigation has concluded that the ship was sunk by a YU-3 Torpedo. But has not proven who fired the torpedo (LOL groan).


http://www.businessinsider.com/south-ko ... nan-2010-5


Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests