Socialism As Socialism Does

[MSimon]

Can you name 5 things that you would consider good about socialistic policies?

#1 with a bullet - it destroyed the Soviet Union.
#2 it nearly destroyed China
#3 it is placing a very heavy burden on Iran
#4 it has reduced the competitiveness of Europe
#5 it exposes the stupidity of all who espouse it
#6 it made Vietnam come begging to the USA despite winning a war against the USA

[Gallium]

Not quite what I was going for...

Also, please note. Communism != Socialism.

One thinks that their should be no free market, everything controlled by the state.
The other considers their should be a controlled free market with the natural monopolies controlled by the state.

But a very telling response none the less. Thankyou.

[MSimon]

Not quite what I was going for...

Also, please note. Communism != Socialism.

One thinks that their should be no free market, everything controlled by the state.
The other considers their should be a controlled free market with the natural monopolies controlled by the state.

But a very telling response none the less. Thankyou.

Ah. Let me see. Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics.

So I guess you are correct. And just to correct the record further National SOCIALISM in Germany was not socialism either.

Perhaps a read of Hayek is in order. He wrote this book in 1944 when things were fresh in people's minds.

The Road to Serfdom

[MSimon]

The other considers their should be a controlled free market with the natural monopolies controlled by the state.

That is in fact called corpratism. In its original incarnation it was called fascism - until the Italians and Germans gave an evil odor to that name.

And socialism is brewing another civil war in Europe because the Nanny State does not reproduce. I see evil days ahead for Europe. Greece, Italy, Spain. They are just the beginning. And the war has already started in Holland.

Socialism is a monkey trap. If you can't let go of the "goods of socialism" you are destroyed.

What I find amusing is that Europe is now a land full of Bourbons.

They have learned nothing and forgotten nothing

[Skipjack]

National Socialism was not Socialism. Socialism is based on the teachings by Lamarck. National Socialism was not. Value you them as you like, but they are very different from their very basic understanding of human nature. The Nazis had at least a basic understanding of genetics and how tehy affect human behaviour and capabilities. The Socialists to this day can not accept that as valid and will fight it as hard as they can.
The US has mostly behaviorists (based on Skinners teachings). They too, for differing reasons (all religiously or pseudoreligiously motivated) are using a failed ideology as their basis for thinking.
Both socialists and the US right (but also the left) therefore favor a thinking that structures society into classes. Class thinking whether it comes from the left, or the right is outdated and wrong however. So both are building on a believe- system that is rotten at the base.

[Skipjack]

Msimon, just be careful with what you are predicting for our economy. The US is lacking natural resources everywhere. You have taken them all and since you cant really get any more, you guys are in big trouble. Usually the proven method to gain new resources was to win a war. The problem is that unless you can bomb your enemies to death, the US has a bad history of winning wars. You always needed others to do the dirty, occupation- work for you. Problem is, noone wants to do it for you anymore. Iraq and Afghanistan are a good lesson for you in regards on how difficult maintaining an occupation can be. You blamed the germans for being sometimes overly hard during their occupations in WW2. Now you have to do the same and more of that. Anyway, even that wont win you anything.
You are done for. Your economy wont be able to progress the way it used to in the past, because your resources are gone.
In that sense Europe is doing better. We never had that many resources and therefore had to learn how to live with what we have.
Our economies are already recovering. We had some setbacks in the tradiatoionally poor countries like Greece. But the main reason Greece was in the EU was because they are a NATO country.
Looking at Germany and Austria however, things are looking much better.
Austrias predicted economic growth for this year is already 1.5 % and as it looks, they might up that number.
What was your predicted economic growth for this year again?

[MSimon]

Yeah. National Socialism was not socialism. And Soviet Socialism was not socialism and Socialism in Europe is a rousing success. Why Greece, Spain, and Italy are on the cutting edge of the bright European future.

And the reason Europe is dying demographically has nothing to do with socialism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... ility_rate

[MSimon]

The predicted growth for the USA is about 2.2%. I expect another shrinkage. Probably -1%. The commercial real-estate market will be crashing this summer.

My financial adviser (a very close friend of the family's as I have no finances to invest) says this and I have been writing about it for at least 6 months.

And when the China bubble pops the world will be in a a world of hurt. It is not a matter of if. Just when. The conditions are right. No one knows when or what will shake the confidence enough to cause the pop.

If we can get our governments to stop screwing with our economy (State and Federal) we will rebound nicely once the bad assets are marked to market.

[MSimon]

BTW Hayek who was on the scene in 1944 said the USSR and National Socialist Germany were socialist countries. He won a Nobel Prize in economics. So maybe he knew something.

You really ought to read his book. It is possible that an education awaits you.

[Jccarlton]

Ok then, a quick question to those currently denouncing socialist ideals.

Can you name 5 things that you would consider good about socialistic policies?

Consider it an experiment into the health of a democracy.

Mixing socialism and democracy is poisonous to democracy. I would follow MSimon's "Road to Serfdom" recommendation, followed by examining all the bad examples. There are so many of them.
Here is a classic socialist in action:
http://hotair.com/archives/2010/03/24/d ... he-people/
http://www.wjr.com/Article.asp?id=1742921&spid=34612
The fact is that once small group takes it upon themselves to make all the decisions for an entire people, they lose the feedback necessary for a thriving society. It's like steering the Knock Nevis( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knock_Nevis ) from it's bridge and needing the flexibility one hundred lighters. It can't be done. Trying to do it always involves coercion of one form or another. That in in the end is raw unbridled tyranny. The boot stamping in our face for all time. The pattern repeats every time socialism is ascendent.

[Gallium]

Ok, no need to jump off the deep end people. From the ferocity and strong wills of the replies thus far I fear I may of hit a raw nerve.

From the responses so far to my little request, would I be fair in saying that a large number here really do honestly believe that the modern socialistic ideals hold nothing but ill? Should they be stopped at (nearly) all costs?

P.S. If others do wish to answer my 'Even if you don't like it, can you name five things you like about socialistic policies?' question please do so. It is very helpful for this little experiment.

P.P.S. Can evoke Godwin's law yet? It is hardly relevant to the point that I'm trying to make.

[Jccarlton]

Ok then, a quick question to those currently denouncing socialist ideals.

Can you name 5 things that you would consider good about socialistic policies?

Consider it an experiment into the health of a democracy.

Mixing socialism and democracy is poisonous to democracy. I would follow MSimon's "Road to Serfdom" recommendation, followed by examining all the bad examples. There are so many of them.
Here is a classic socialist in action:
http://hotair.com/archives/2010/03/24/d ... he-people/
http://www.wjr.com/Article.asp?id=1742921&spid=34612
The fact is that once small group takes it upon themselves to make all the decisions for an entire people, they lose the feedback necessary for a thriving society. It's like steering the Knock Nevis(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knock_Nevis) from it's bridge and needing the flexibility one hundred lighters. It can't be done. Trying to do it always involves coercion of one form or another. That in in the end is raw unbridled tyranny. The boot stamping in our face for all time. The pattern repeats every time socialism is ascendent.

More on feedback:
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opini ... 80997.html

[Jccarlton]

Ok, no need to jump off the deep end people. From the ferocity and strong wills of the replies thus far I fear I may of hit a raw nerve.

From the responses so far to my little request, would I be fair in saying that a large number here really do honestly believe that the modern socialistic ideals hold nothing but ill? Should they be stopped at (nearly) all costs?

P.S. If others do wish to answer my 'Even if you don't like it, can you name five things you like about socialistic policies?' question please do so. It is very helpful for this little experiment.

P.P.S. Can evoke Godwin's law yet? It is hardly relevant to the point that I'm trying to make.

I would ask this question, considering the past experiences with socialism and the consequences of those experiences, why are you willing to give up your liberty and enserf yourself to the Uberstate and it's dictates. I don't think that any of the experiences in the last century could convince anybody that the uberstate in any of it's forms could by any measure, be called benign.

[Gallium]

To answer your question directly:

Personally speaking, the experiences of both myself and my country with socialism are generally speaking pretty positive. Good experiences from all my family with collectively funded national healthcare. World class state education to university level. Council services, despite the odd niggle, are pretty good all round. Frequent public transport too and from my work. Water flows from the taps. Power out of the socket. Effective safety net should I fall on hard times (which I have done in the past).
A fairly typical 1st World existence, or so I like to think. One I hope that a viable fusion solution would help improve even more.

Take a look at the representation from the Scottish parliament:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament

The left and center left have 86.1% of the vote. (more or less)
The center right only have 13.9% of the vote. (more or less)

Socialist have been the ruling party within Scotland for the past 50+ years. And even before that, the center right would have a few of the posters here frothing at the mouth.

As for you "liberty" comment. Define please. Free and fair democratic elections. Extensive free press. The national pass time is to tell politicians to get stuffed. But then the government isn't really seen as a big bad bogy man here.

So, to sum up, yes, I and 86% of my country are (varying degrees of) socialist. Why? Because we like it.

[MSimon]

Let me put it in electrical grid terms.

You have 100,000 sources distributed across the USA (for example purposes). Is it wise to control the voltage, power output, and phase of each from Washington, DC? Or is it better to control them locally from local feedback? Which system will better match the generators to the grid?

Or worse - do you want the local generators controlled based on the phase in Washington? You could get some hellacious phase currents if you did it that way. Then generators start tripping off line and you get a cascading failure. What we refer to in the business as dark energy.