A couple posts on wind energy

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Jccarlton
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A couple posts on wind energy

Post by Jccarlton »

First, some propaganda:

http://worldfocus.org/blog/tag/green-energy-in-denmark/

My parents watched this on PBS and it made me want to throw up. I have never seen anything lay it on so thick.

Second an excellent post on wind turbines Achille's heel, reliability:

http://alfin2100.blogspot.com/2010/03/j ... n-air.html

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Reliability is not a problem. The turbines are designed to last long enough to collect the subsidy. It is uneconomical to make them last longer than the subsidy.

In about 2 to 3 years there will be a number of projects coming off subsidy. They will be abandoned.

Solar will be the same - just a year or two later.

Don't think of them as wind powered electric generators. Think of them as subsidy collectors. Then it all makes sense.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Giorgio
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Post by Giorgio »

Here in Italy solar and wind power plants have a subsidy of around 0.3 Euro for generated Kw for 20 years.
This spurred a whole new economy around Solar and Wind farms, we have an installed base of around 5 GW right now.
While solar or wind power plants are (or will be) nowhere near to satisfy the energetic needs of the country, they do push research and innovation in the field and lower the price of the technology.

Solar Panel cost for 1 KW in our area dropped from 5500 Euro to the actual 2600 Euro, and a projected 1800 Euro/Kw in 2011.
In a country like our, with NO nuclear power and where power cost for private home user is around 0,25 Euro/Kw plus taxes, having a couple of solar panels installed in parallel to the grid start to be a suitable solution to reduce one's power bill.

An incentive like the above might give a good push to IEC research too.
If you succeed you get the money, otherwise the government does not spend an Euro (or US$).

doug l
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Post by doug l »

Issues of reliability aside, are those widely-dispersed spindly white windmills really the best way to capture wind energy? I like the idea of generating some energy from wind where it's practical (and I'm not very happy about the bird/bat mortality), but why these white windmills? I don't recall specifically if this 'regendyne' magnetic levitation vertical axis wind-generation set up has been discussed, and I don't see a lot of info on it, but the video that they have posted to youtubube looks intriguing from my naive perspective.
http://www.regenedyne.com/

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Wind like solar is very dependend on time of day, time of year and other factors. This means that you will still need coal, or nuclear powerplants to fill the (many, many) gaps. And then a nuclear or coal plant is more expensive if it is not operated all the time. So they will be running constantly anyway. What do you win that way?
Thats right: Nothing!
Wind and Solar (at least with the current solution)= waste of taxpayer money.

clonan
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Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:16 pm

Post by clonan »

Skipjack wrote:What do you win that way?
Thats right: Nothing!
Peak... you get peak power.

Solar especially tends to top out right along with peak power consumption.

In addition PV and small wind turbines reduce the need for long distance power cables.

Plus, Coal, Oil, Natural Gas and Nuclear are all heavily subsidized already so if you really want to complain about subsidizes you should start there.

CaptainBeowulf
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Post by CaptainBeowulf »

Having some solar panels on your house should help in summer in much of North America - it's usually hottest and your air conditioner is maxed out when the sun is brightest.

Giorgio
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Post by Giorgio »

The beauty of solar panel is exactly that. They give out maximum power when extra power (generally for cooling in summer) is needed.

mad_derek
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Post by mad_derek »

Giorgio wrote:The beauty of solar panel is exactly that. They give out maximum power when extra power (generally for cooling in summer) is needed.
Yes, right, in the med that might be true. In UK max power is required in Dec-Mar when there's no sun. It never gets hot enough to require AC unless you're a complete wimp. Oh, and there's very little wind in the cold bits of the winter either ... so much for pan EU policy - it's crap.
Insanity Rules!

Giorgio
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Post by Giorgio »

mad_derek wrote:
Giorgio wrote:The beauty of solar panel is exactly that. They give out maximum power when extra power (generally for cooling in summer) is needed.
Yes, right, in the med that might be true. In UK max power is required in Dec-Mar when there's no sun. It never gets hot enough to require AC unless you're a complete wimp. Oh, and there's very little wind in the cold bits of the winter either ... so much for pan EU policy - it's crap.
And that's the reason why we need a suitable source of low cost clean power.
Nuclear is still a good solution, unfortunately most of the people are too blind to realize this.

mad_derek
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Post by mad_derek »

Giorgio wrote:
mad_derek wrote:
Giorgio wrote:The beauty of solar panel is exactly that. They give out maximum power when extra power (generally for cooling in summer) is needed.
Yes, right, in the med that might be true. In UK max power is required in Dec-Mar when there's no sun. It never gets hot enough to require AC unless you're a complete wimp. Oh, and there's very little wind in the cold bits of the winter either ... so much for pan EU policy - it's crap.
And that's the reason why we need a suitable source of low cost clean power.
Nuclear is still a good solution, unfortunately most of the people are too blind to realize this.
OK, now that bit I can agree with ...
Insanity Rules!

gregw
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Location: Louisville, Ky.

Post by gregw »

Wind and solar at their very best can only supply a very small fraction of the power needed by any modern country. If there is a battery break-through, the fraction will be much smaller. The root problem is energy density, both have very low energy densities, so no matter how good the technology gets, the density is still not there.

IntLibber
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Post by IntLibber »

Here in New England, the democratic candidate for Vermont governor was on tv insisting that Germany got 15% of its power from solar power, and a similar portion from wind power (truth: they get less than 1% total from all renewables).

This is the problem with ideologues: they see what they believe, they don't believe what they see. You can't confuse these people with the facts, their minds are made up.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

IntLibber wrote:Here in New England, the democratic candidate for Vermont governor was on tv insisting that Germany got 15% of its power from solar power, and a similar portion from wind power (truth: they get less than 1% total from all renewables).

This is the problem with ideologues: they see what they believe, they don't believe what they see. You can't confuse these people with the facts, their minds are made up.
He is going to get the citizens to pay a lot of money to destabilize the grid. The trouble is that the utilities are getting paid a LOT of money for this crap so they won't say a thing.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

D Tibbets
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Post by D Tibbets »

IntLibber wrote:Here in New England, the democratic candidate for Vermont governor was on tv insisting that Germany got 15% of its power from solar power, and a similar portion from wind power (truth: they get less than 1% total from all renewables).

This is the problem with ideologues: they see what they believe, they don't believe what they see. You can't confuse these people with the facts, their minds are made up.
Actually, acording to this site, the amounts are:

http://www.euronuclear.org/info/encyclo ... en-ger.htm

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

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