Idaho Will Sue

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MSimon
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Idaho Will Sue

Post by MSimon »

Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

BSPhysics
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Post by BSPhysics »

Mark Levin's Landmark Legal Foundation is also planning a court battle if the House decides to use the parliamentary procedure known as the Slaughter Rule, ie Deem & Pass.

http://www.landmarklegal.org/DesktopDefault.aspx

I will be out of work starting in 3 months and will no longer have my employer provided insurance. I'd like to go get my own but money is tight, of course. But I'll be damned if they make me buy it, fine me, or threaten me with jail. They'll have to take me by force.

BS

zbarlici
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Post by zbarlici »

Do you really think the govt will force medcare down your throat?

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

zbarlici wrote:Do you really think the govt will force medcare down your throat?
They already do it to people over 65.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Maui
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Re: Idaho Will Sue

Post by Maui »

I'm not saying I like everything about the health bill or the way it is being voted in via reconciliation, but what is this business with the GOP is still fighting it on the premise that Obama is forcing "government" healthcare on us? How does one possibly reconcile that with reality?

Complain about the increase taxes to pay for it, but this doesn't impose gov't healthcare on anyone anymore that "government" auto insurance is imposed by rules requiring drivers to be insured. If anything, gov't insurance is being reduced due to cuts in the Medicare Advantage program.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

How does one possibly reconcile that with reality?
I suppose I can just pay the tax if I don't want health care. Or the government will just take it out of my check.

I do like the idea of pre-existing conditions being covered. I'll just pay the lower tax and when I get sick I'll buy insurance. That is a really GREAT deal.

But not to worry. It won't pass. Hispanics have promised not to vote for it unless it covers illegals.

But wait. Mr.o promised taxes wouldn't go up on anyone making under 250K a year. So I guess there will be no tax. What a relief.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Complain about the increase taxes to pay for it, but this doesn't impose gov't healthcare on anyone anymore that "government" auto insurance is imposed by rules requiring drivers to be insured.
Well that is a relief. I'm glad that State auto insurance laws are null and void. I live in Illinois. Can I quote you on that?

Oh. I get it. As long as government is not running the auto insurance companies forcing me to buy from one of their authorized companies is not government insurance.

That opens lots of possibilities. All companies have to do is buy enough legislators and we can be forced to buy their products. Sounds like a GREAT deal. If you are one of the favored companies. And here I thought the left in America was about protecting the little guy from the big guys. And now I find out they are in cahoots with the big guys. I'm SO disillusioned.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

IntLibber
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Post by IntLibber »

zbarlici wrote:Do you really think the govt will force medcare down your throat?
They can't if they dont have enough doctors. Current surveys say between 40-60% of doctors will cease practicing medicine if this bill passes... "paging Doctor Galt"

Maui
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Post by Maui »

MSimon wrote:I do like the idea of pre-existing conditions being covered. I'll just pay the lower tax and when I get sick I'll buy insurance. That is a really GREAT deal.
I suppose you can think of as a "emergency" policy that will cover your ER costs if you have an emergency (costs that right now all of us with insurance are paying for). Obviously, if too many people opt for this route, they will have to up the fine, but I think the system makes sense and in reality, I think when most people that aren't covered by their company looks at the price of insurance minus the cost of the fine minus any subsidies they are eligible for and they'll find the remaining cost worth the peace-of-mind (certainly that's the idea).

Anyway if the estimates are that about 2/3 of the uninsured will be insured with the plan (and thus paying into the healthcare system whereas they are not currently), that means those with insurance no longer paying so much to cover the uninsured. Meanwhile that choose to remain uninsured get the "great" deal that they can opt in at anytime. So both sides win, right?

I
Last edited by Maui on Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

Maui
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Post by Maui »

IntLibber wrote:
zbarlici wrote:Do you really think the govt will force medcare down your throat?
They can't if they dont have enough doctors. Current surveys say between 40-60% of doctors will cease practicing medicine if this bill passes... "paging Doctor Galt"
Personally, I think some downward pressure on physician income is warranted. I think the fact that physicians in the U.S. are making 3x what physicians make in other industrialized nations probably has something to do with the fact that we pay 3x as much for healthcare.

Anyway, with the "bundled" medicare payments that are being introduced, my understanding is that it may be possible for many physicians to actually increase income by doing away with a lot of superfluous visits and treatments that they currently profit under... not to mention that not as many medicare docs will be needed if superfluous care is cut down.

The bottom line is the bill is specifically designed to cut down on medicare-funded healthcare... by eliminating some of the most wasteful spending. Obviously only time will tell if it succeeds.

Maui
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Post by Maui »

MSimon wrote:Oh. I get it. As long as government is not running the auto insurance companies forcing me to buy from one of their authorized companies is not government insurance.

That opens lots of possibilities. All companies have to do is buy enough legislators and we can be forced to buy their products. Sounds like a GREAT deal. If you are one of the favored companies. And here I thought the left in America was about protecting the little guy from the big guys. And now I find out they are in cahoots with the big guys. I'm SO disillusioned.
Confused... not sure what this legislation does that makes bribing easier. It's creating marketplaces that will create much more direct competition and make it harder, I would think, for a bribe to be rewarded. Also, the bill is putting an independent panel in charge of medicare payments. While they could theoretically bribed the same as a politician could, at least it is to some degree yanking the reigns away from congress. I can only think that will help, not hurt.

If a bill is introduced that subsidizes a particular organization's charge on the marketplace, fine, but until that happens, you are just building a strawman here.

IntLibber
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Post by IntLibber »

Maui wrote:
IntLibber wrote:
zbarlici wrote:Do you really think the govt will force medcare down your throat?
They can't if they dont have enough doctors. Current surveys say between 40-60% of doctors will cease practicing medicine if this bill passes... "paging Doctor Galt"
Personally, I think some downward pressure on physician income is warranted. I think the fact that physicians in the U.S. are making 3x what physicians make in other industrialized nations probably has something to do with the fact that we pay 3x as much for healthcare.

Anyway, with the "bundled" medicare payments that are being introduced, my understanding is that it may be possible for many physicians to actually increase income by doing away with a lot of superfluous visits and treatments that they currently profit under... not to mention that not as many medicare docs will be needed if superfluous care is cut down.

The bottom line is the bill is specifically designed to cut down on medicare-funded healthcare... by eliminating some of the most wasteful spending. Obviously only time will tell if it succeeds.
The bottom line is that doctor's salaries are high because we don't have tort reform, and there is no tort reform in this health care bill. You can force down doctors pay all you like, but if you don't get tort reform, the doctor is merely working to pay his malpractice insurance, and will leave medicine.

What we are seeing is physicians refusing to accept any insurance at all and working on a cash basis. Doctors spend 1/8th of their day doing insurance paperwork, and another chunk doing government paperwork. You're going to see doctors doing a John Galt and refusing to deal with any insurance companies or government agencies in order to reclaim enough time in the day that they can reduce their fees by 40% on cash paid procedures, and still make the same amount of money.

This is where things are going to get interesting, because they will develop a loyal following of people who refuse to pay insurance, using only a cash basis doctor, and suing the government to be exempted akin to homeschooling. Thats when it will be made clear that this really isn't about health care, but government controlling our lives and pocketbooks.

JLawson
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Re: Idaho Will Sue

Post by JLawson »

Maui wrote:I'm not saying I like everything about the health bill or the way it is being voted in via reconciliation, but what is this business with the GOP is still fighting it on the premise that Obama is forcing "government" healthcare on us? How does one possibly reconcile that with reality?

Complain about the increase taxes to pay for it, but this doesn't impose gov't healthcare on anyone anymore that "government" auto insurance is imposed by rules requiring drivers to be insured. If anything, gov't insurance is being reduced due to cuts in the Medicare Advantage program.
Maui -

Let me explain.

Your business brings in $2 million a year.

But expenses (due to some bad decisions in the past on your part) are such that you haven't run anywhere close to even in the last 30 years. In fact, due to borrowing you're doing to keep the business open, you're in the hole over $12 million, and looking to add another $2 million in debt to that this year alone. Your accountants (unforgivingly honest creatures they are) tell you that there's no way you're going to be able (even under their most optimistic forecasts) of even breaking even for another decade or two, so you're likely looking at $24 mil in debt by then.

You COULD grow your revenue stream, but you've made a lot of comittments to the Board of Directors that you'd explicitly NOT do what's needed to increase revenue.

Now, as a businessman, you know you're in darn deep kim-chee at this point. You can't scale back the business, you've got too many people employed. You can't save money by cutting back the services you provide - your board of directors won't let you. In fact, they've got more people they want employed, and don't tell them there's no money because that's what banks are for, isn't it?

Only the banks are looking at you with the ol' hairy eyeball when you come crawling to them for a loan, and they're making it kind of clear that your credit limit is about to reach a hard stop. Then you'll HAVE to make do on what you can squeeze from your customers - and they won't put up with much.

And now, someone (who's endorsed by the Board of Directors) comes along and tells you that for a mere million a year you can become solvent in 10 years, and maybe pay off your debt and be in really good shape in 20 years. All you have to do is pay them the money. And... not ask too many questions.

You going to trust them? If it works as described, you'll be a hero. If it doesn't work, you're looking at REAL problems. If you don't go for it - the board of directors will be pretty pissed at you, but the company won't be hurt, at least at first.
When opinion and reality conflict - guess which one is going to win in the long run.

Maui
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Re: Idaho Will Sue

Post by Maui »

Lawson,

Sure, I'll buy a lot of that. That's not the part that irks me. The part that irks me is the people whining that government is taking over their healthcare. That to me is just scare-tactics that bears little resemblance to what is being rammed through congress.

As far as the projected costs and revenue, its not exactly as if the CBO is just some random guy the "Board of Directors" likes. Even the GOP is citing the CBO to argue against the bill (factoring in an increase in medicare payments to doctors that would have happened with or without healthcare reform). Also, remember not all of the "costs" are covered by increased spending... a lot is covered by cutting costs elsewhere (medicare). And us unpopular as new fees and taxes are, at least everything is being paid for. (As opposed to the Iraq War, for instance...)

Maui
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Post by Maui »

IntLibber wrote:The bottom line is that doctor's salaries are high because we don't have tort reform, and there is no tort reform in this health care bill. You can force down doctors pay all you like, but if you don't get tort reform, the doctor is merely working to pay his malpractice insurance, and will leave medicine.

What we are seeing is physicians refusing to accept any insurance at all and working on a cash basis. Doctors spend 1/8th of their day doing insurance paperwork, and another chunk doing government paperwork. You're going to see doctors doing a John Galt and refusing to deal with any insurance companies or government agencies in order to reclaim enough time in the day that they can reduce their fees by 40% on cash paid procedures, and still make the same amount of money.

This is where things are going to get interesting, because they will develop a loyal following of people who refuse to pay insurance, using only a cash basis doctor, and suing the government to be exempted akin to homeschooling. Thats when it will be made clear that this really isn't about health care, but government controlling our lives and pocketbooks.
FYI

I do wish tort reform was included in the bill. Obama did ask for at least one element to be included, but it doesn't look like that made the final bill. As much as Dem tactics in getting this bill through have been regrettable, I do think if the GOP hadn't been so determined to sink Democrats with healthcare rather that negotiate in good faith, it would have made it in.

Still, this bill doesn't prevent it from happening. GOP will make big gains in congress this fall and I wouldn't be shocked if such a bill gets introduced.

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