So how much things are "improving" in the muslim w

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MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:01 am

I see your point. But in engineering we have the ultimate test. Does it work? Does it last? In science we have replication. Verification.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Betruger
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Postby Betruger » Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:25 pm

MSimon wrote:
Betruger wrote:
MSimon wrote:
Betruger wrote:More adversity, not less, produces the fittest arguments/designs/etc.



Argggggggghhhhh. Matey. A man after me own black heart.
"NEC ULTIMA SI PRIOR" Crash and burn baby!


Could you translate?
Not ultimate (last) if prior. Written under a sun dial. Many faces to this maxim.. == change is life, stagnation is death.
Or in Leviathan by Hobbes: "From desire, ariseth the thought of some means we have seen produce the like of that which we aim at; and from the thought of that, the thought of means to that mean; and so continually, till we come to some beginning within our own power."

Betruger
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Postby Betruger » Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:44 pm

if at first you don't succeed ... give up - who cares!
What planet are you from? :)

olivier
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Postby olivier » Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:18 pm

Back to the topic, see how the spirit of resistance can still find its way. I also strongly encourage the (unexpensive) reading of Persepolis by Marjane Satrapi. This may give a hint as to how things have a chance to get better in Iran, however long it may take. Iranian officials mentioned a soft war against the republic. Actually they are at war against intelligence and they will be defeated in the end, there is light in the tunnel.

KitemanSA
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Postby KitemanSA » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:46 pm

Betruger wrote:
if at first you don't succeed ... give up - who cares!
What planet are you from? :)
Springfield, d'oh!

mad_derek
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Postby mad_derek » Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:45 am

KitemanSA wrote:
Betruger wrote:
if at first you don't succeed ... give up - who cares!
What planet are you from? :)
Springfield, d'oh!


Nah, the planet 'England'

My government has made it clear that they will extract all my family money (which I should point out my wife and I earned) before we die - or, if necessary, afterwards. I have thus stopped working - that way we should run out about the time we die. Hopefully they won't get any more from us.

Hence I don't care.
Insanity Rules!

Betruger
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Postby Betruger » Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:14 am

Sounds like you didn't give up trying to keep your money from them.

JohnSmith
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Postby JohnSmith » Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:09 pm

I think I've ticked Simon off with my 'cite your sources' comments. Well, turnabout is fair play, so here's my sources on Israel being hard on the heathens.
Book of Joshua
Book of Judges
1'st and 2'nd Samuel
1'st and 2'nd Kings

Full of war and conquering, including phrases like 'leave not one stone on top of another,' and 'So he showed them, and they put the city to the sword.'

This is not a comment on present-day Israel, more a comment about how religions change. In general, religions become less warlike over time.


I'm gonna agree with mad_derek (Hi, by the way, good to meet you!) and say that most people give up because arguing with you is reminiscent of blunt force trauma involving reinforced concrete. You've admitted that even when you're wrong about something as well defined as electromagnetics - and everyone knows you're wrong - you can still argue long enough that everyone gives up.

bcglorf
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light and dark

Postby bcglorf » Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:16 pm

olivier wrote:Back to the topic, see how the spirit of resistance can still find its way. I also strongly encourage the (unexpensive) reading of Persepolis by Marjane Satrapi. This may give a hint as to how things have a chance to get better in Iran, however long it may take. Iranian officials mentioned a soft war against the republic. Actually they are at war against intelligence and they will be defeated in the end, there is light in the tunnel.


There is certainly a light at the end of the tunnel in Iran. The majority do oppose the conservative theocratic leadership. My concern though is that the conservatives might use explosives to collapse the tunnel before the Iranian public gets to reach the light.

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:00 am

You've admitted that even when you're wrong about something as well defined as electromagnetics - and everyone knows you're wrong - you can still argue long enough that everyone gives up.


There is actual evidence that I gave up first.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

CaptainBeowulf
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Postby CaptainBeowulf » Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:41 am

If the various peoples living under Soviet rule could ultimately overthrow the Soviet system, I think it's also quite feasible that the Iranians could overthrow the theocrats. Unless what you mean by "using explosives" is starting a nuclear war... physical destruction of Iran and its people would mean that they never achieve freedom (although it's a large country - it would take a lot of strikes to really wipe the population out).

Regarding ancient Israel: were they really very different from others in ancient times? Rome and Persia both did a lot of exterminations (for instance, Rome destroyed Carthage, the Celts of northern Italy, entire cities in Greece, Spain and Gaul). The ancient Anglo-Saxons did a thorough destruction job on Romano-Celtic Britain. Huns and Mongols killed all sorts of people. Charlemagne executed thousands of pagans he conquered in Germany when they wouldn't convert to Christianity. The Israelites don't seem any better or worse than others to me.

CaptainBeowulf
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Postby CaptainBeowulf » Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:48 am

Interestingly, MSimon was not very enthusiastic about the nuke idea originally. For instance, on page one or two of the thread, he said:

The trouble is you can only destroy Mecca once.


He now seems to have found himself in the position of arguing for the idea for several pages, to the point where others started to give up.

There are some pretty odd threads around here, but this one is odder than most! People have almost wandered into various positions accidentally.

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:24 am

CaptainBeowulf wrote:Interestingly, MSimon was not very enthusiastic about the nuke idea originally. For instance, on page one or two of the thread, he said:

The trouble is you can only destroy Mecca once.


He now seems to have found himself in the position of arguing for the idea for several pages, to the point where others started to give up.

There are some pretty odd threads around here, but this one is odder than most! People have almost wandered into various positions accidentally.


Why not. Exploration is interesting. I'm always willing to argue the other side.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

choff
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Postby choff » Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:00 pm

If anyone should be blamed for the thread its me, since it's my stupid idea.
I actually got it on the spur of the moment a few years before 911. Some Muslim guy I had to work with started off telling me the west was going to get it and we had it coming. So I told him we'd probably nuke Mecca in retaliation and it shut him right up.
CHoff


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