White House Decides to Outsource NASA Work

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cuddihy
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Post by cuddihy »

IntLibber wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:
IntLibber wrote:Firstly,.getting.rid.of.the.10k.man.standing.army.
Is there a particular reason you put a period between each word rather than a space?
As.I've.said.previously...I.spilled.water.on.my.keyboard.a.few.days.ago,.have.not.been.able.to.stop.by.Frye's.yet.to.get.a.replacement...The.space.bar.is.hosed...
What kind of a geek doesn't have an extra keyboard laying around?
:shock:
Tom.Cuddihy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Faith is the foundation of reason.

Josh Cryer
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Post by Josh Cryer »

Obama tries to do what Bush didn't even attempt to do.
Science is what we have learned about how not to fool ourselves about the way the world is.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

93143 wrote: Heavy lift. There's really no substitute...
Absolutely! The west would never have been won without those massive train cars they used.

No, wait, those didn't come till later. Oh yeah, it was those clipper ships they needed. No, wait, those didn't come till later.

I guess it was really the conestoga wagon; which was typically assembled in St. Louis; the pioneer's equivlent of low earth orbit (half way to anywhere)!

djolds1
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Post by djolds1 »

KitemanSA wrote:
93143 wrote: Heavy lift. There's really no substitute...
Absolutely! The west would never have been won without those massive train cars they used.

No, wait, those didn't come till later. Oh yeah, it was those clipper ships they needed. No, wait, those didn't come till later.

I guess it was really the conestoga wagon; which was typically assembled in St. Louis; the pioneer's equivlent of low earth orbit (half way to anywhere)!
Wrong model. Access to space via current methods is more like Zheng He's Fleet. If you don't do it in scale and maintain the huge infrastructure, you don't do it to any worthwhile degree. Is anyone on this board satisfied with the "LEO only"model NASA has pursued for the last 40 years? Its good to see private space finally coming into existence, but the private companies promise nothing more than another 40 years of "LEO only." For deep space and/or larger populations in space we need either a game changer (Polywell/space elevator/Launch Loop/etc.) or a chemical Heavy Lifter. And at present the game changers all remain speculative.
Vae Victis

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

djolds1 wrote: Wrong model. Access to space via current methods is more like Zheng He's Fleet. If you don't do it in scale and maintain the huge infrastructure, you don't do it to any worthwhile degree.
Excellent model... for my argument!. Zheng He's fleet is NASA. It explored a few places in huge, expensive ships, then went kaput! It was the the other side of the world that made it, with little tiny groups of little tiny cast off ships. Hardly ships at all.

What we truly need is a viable way for the discontent to move out to LEO and beyond. MegaRockets (tm) ain't the way! VolksRockets are. Tiny, cheap, single family type; send 'em up by the thousands ways into LEO, the moon and beyond. JMHO!

93143
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Post by 93143 »

How big is big? All I can say is that if you need >115 mT to LEO in order to send three guys in a cramped tin can to the moon and back (or 75 mT to send just one guy, who has to sit very still or his lunar lander will capsize in flight), apparently 100 mT is not actually all that big.

A family could go west in a covered wagon. But you cannot get even one astronaut anywhere of interest on an EELV-class rocket. That takes what we call "heavy lift" - or a salvo of EELV-class rockets and a complicated, fiddly, inefficient Tinkertoy operation on orbit before you can even go anywhere. Even with propellant depots, you can't do a decent lunar mission on an EELV in one launch, and you can forget about Phobos, Mars, Ceres...

Not to mention (apparently this got missed the first time) that HEAVY LIFT IS CHEAPER PER KILOGRAM THAN LIGHT LIFT, even disregarding the extra efficiency bonus from ground integration of large modules. This is well demonstrated; even with LC-39's high fixed costs, Jupiter at a reasonable flight rate looks to stand an even chance of beating Falcon 9 in terms of $/kg.

No, what we have now is too small. It's like trying to go west in a bunch of those little toy wagons kids drag around the back yard and fill with dirt to eat.

...except that even with heavy lift, or even Nova-class super heavy lift (which might allow a one-launch Mars mission, which is the closest we're going to get to the "covered wagon" analogy), the cost of chemical rocketry is still too high. If we want to move people out into space, we need new technology. Exploration is as much as we can do right now. So the question now is, do we want to explore? Or do we want to build exploration vehicles in LEO?

Roger
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Post by Roger »

93143 wrote: Heavy lift. There's really no substitute...
And its going to stay that way for the foreseeable future, until we build an off planet industrial base. A space ship factory in space.
I like the p-B11 resonance peak at 50 KV acceleration. In2 years we'll know.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Private companies unlike NASA will be looking for customers.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

93143
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Post by 93143 »

MSimon wrote:Private companies unlike NASA will be looking for customers.
Your point being?

Right now, commercial providers don't have heavy lift to sell, and they aren't close. If NASA needs something they can't get commercially, they have to provide it themselves.

Once a commercial company can plausibly offer a heavy lifter (and SpaceX for one is evidently working on it), NASA - and hopefully other interested parties - can buy those services. Until then, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

93143 wrote:
MSimon wrote:Private companies unlike NASA will be looking for customers.
Your point being?

Right now, commercial providers don't have heavy lift to sell, and they aren't close. If NASA needs something they can't get commercially, they have to provide it themselves.

Once a commercial company can plausibly offer a heavy lifter (and SpaceX for one is evidently working on it), NASA - and hopefully other interested parties - can buy those services. Until then, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Private companies will figure a way to get the customers with what they have.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

93143
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Post by 93143 »

That's true. And besides NASA, most customers aren't engaged in human spaceflight, so heavy lift isn't as important.

But then there's that Merlin-2 project. Maybe Elon is just a wide-eyed space nut... he has admitted that the business plan is a bit shaky...

CaptainBeowulf
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Post by CaptainBeowulf »

I think something like a theoretical SpaceX HLV will come on the scene if the private companies are successful at medium lift. However, they need a decade or two building experience, refining technology, and making profits at medium lift. We need heavy lift in the meantime.

Getting NASA out of medium lift is a really big step. It stops wasting money making medium lift vehicles like the shuttle or Ares I that need too much infrastructure for their capability. It encourages the commercial companies to develop. However, NASA is still the best bet for heavy lift, and will be IMO until about 2030.

Ok, I concede the point about the FAA. Forget NASA as a regulatory agency.

The following link is on a NASA site, so you could argue it has some NASA "bias", but nonetheless I think it is fairly solid. EELVs at very high volume are $75 to $150 million per launch, depending on configuration (ie. Delta II vs. Delta IV Heavy). Currently, realistic costs could fall in the $150 to $200 million per launch range. Current actual costs can creep up a lot higher when there are low launch volumes.

http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/nex ... V_main.htm

A shuttle launch has often been quoted at around half a billion, or $500 million, over the last decade. Here is a NASA site claiming $450 million:

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/kennedy/abo ... e_faq.html

When you include orbiter refurbishment, mission costs, and payload integration you can get up to $1.3 billion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_program

A JS-246SH should also cost about $500-600 million. You have no orbiter to refurbish, but you use up an extra engine per launch and your SRBs are a bit more expensive (5 segment instead of 4).

So, a shuttle derived HLV costs between 2.5 to 4 times the cost of a heavy EELV to launch ($150 vs. $600, if we do a best case scenario for the EELV, $200 vs. $500, if we do a best case scenario for the SDLV). You get around 120 tons to LEO with the SDLV vs. 25 tons with the EELV. In other words, the SDLV still gets more pounds of payload to orbit for the same money. If we take the arguments some people make that EELVs are costing substantially more than $200 million per launch, then the SDLV looks better and better.

With the SDLV you avoid the dead weight of docking mechanisms for the different parts, as already mentioned in this thread. Dead weight reduces mission capability, and it increases costs (you're paying for payload you don't really use).

Then, also consider: a monolithic 120 ton vehicle will be significantly more robust (structurally sound) than a segmented vehicle constructed from multiple parts. Also, there are costs associated with on-orbit integration. You'll need yet another launch to send astronauts up to spend time finishing integration, even if the modules dock automatically. Integrating on the ground is cheaper, if the launch cost is the same, let alone less.

I share the frustration of other space enthusiasts, but, quite frankly, chemical rockets will always be mostly throw-away systems, and will always cost at least millions of dollars per launch. They will never be systems which individual families can use to get off the earth's surface. The only real game changers are tethers, a space elevator, and new physics that allow something like a gravitomagnetic drive.

Carbon nanotube composites combined with scramjets will likely make a spaceplane possible. Scramjet technology is pretty much there. Carbon nanotubes aren't quite there, yet. If no truly unexpected hurdles are encountered, they should be advanced enough to make a spaceplane and a space elevator feasible within a few decades. The spaceplane will make crew launch fairly cheap, but still not within reach of the average person.

I suspect that the theoretical SpaceX HLV will cost less than a JS-246SH when it eventually materializes. Perhaps $200-$300 million in today's dollars to launch 120 tons to LEO. If it turns out to be profitable to mine asteroids and other planets for resources, and good fusion powered interplanetary ships are available for flying around the solar system, there will be commercial companies willing to fly cargo up on such vehicles at such prices, and to fly workers up on spaceplanes. You will then get solar system colonization, slowly. The only way it can happen faster is with a "game-changer" breakthrough.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

If no truly unexpected hurdles are encountered, they should be advanced enough to make a spaceplane and a space elevator feasible within a few decades.
The space elevator is not going to be to ground level if it ever works. The material strength at zero safety factor is not there.

A launch loop is more likely.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

CaptainBeowulf
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Post by CaptainBeowulf »

Also, I agree that an in-space spaceship factory is the way to go. My approach would be:

1. 20 to 30 HLV launches to assemble a factory in space, and some "space tugs" to get asteroids with the materials you need and drag them back to the factory. About 2400 to 3600 tons should cover that.
2. You grind up the asteroids for iron ore and other materials. Make large, steel hulled ships. Hopefully, you find water-rich asteroids or comets or water deposits on the moon. You extract hydrogen from water deposits for reaction mass.
3. Commercial medium lift vehicles vehicles bring up light or highly complex internal components like circuit boards, wiring and LCD/plasma screens. Hopefully you have something like polywell by then, and hopefully the reactor assembly doesn't weigh more than 25 tons. You launch it from earth and install it on the ship.

You could churn out ships for solar-system wide use this way. Once you've built up enough in-space infrastructure, maybe you don't need heavy lift anymore. Medium lift does fine for bringing up payloads of complex machinery and electronics 25 tons at a time. Hopefully you have a spaceplane which can fly a couple of dozen people to orbit for less than $50 million per flight. You make everything heavy in space.

Your in-space factory should be designed to eventually expand itself. By getting ore from asteroids, it can over a few decades turn itself from a 2000 ton facility into a 100,000 ton facility. Eventually it can build aircraft-carrier sized ships for flying between Earth orbit and Mars orbit, or out to the asteroid belt.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

93143 wrote: Not to mention (apparently this got missed the first time) that HEAVY LIFT IS CHEAPER PER KILOGRAM THAN LIGHT LIFT, even disregarding the extra efficiency bonus from ground integration of large modules.
But only if the light lift is relegated to expendable rockets like the heavy lift. Other means exist, or can be made to exist with a reasonable need. (Look up HASTOL).
Last edited by KitemanSA on Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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