Engineers are intrinsically 'right-wing'.

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Josh Cryer
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Postby Josh Cryer » Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:41 pm

Skipjack wrote:I dont separate science and engineering as strictly as other people do. For me one can not exist without the other.


I'm the same way to be honest, but I am a mutualist / individualist politically, which is more leftist than right (though of course the distinction gets muddied when you get to that level and someone here might disacree).

In my line of work, though, most of the engineers are more of a trial and error type, and being intuitive and logical I tend to find solutions that work quite quickly.

One thing I hate most is when I have an idea that I know will work but people insist on "stopping" and "mulling over" other solutions. This is especially annoying if it can be seen that the idea is in fact working, but just taking time. In my experience "mulling over" other solutions tends to actually result in more time being wasted.
Science is what we have learned about how not to fool ourselves about the way the world is.

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:41 am

If that means the US Navy or Spaceguard has to vaporize radical chanting clerics with fake bomb vests


Yes. The clerics have fake bomb vests. Their acolytes are given the real ones. Clever those clerics.

And you have to ask yourself why bomb vests evoke such a potent image.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:43 am

Josh Cryer wrote:
Skipjack wrote:I dont separate science and engineering as strictly as other people do. For me one can not exist without the other.


I'm the same way to be honest, but I am a mutualist / individualist politically, which is more leftist than right (though of course the distinction gets muddied when you get to that level and someone here might disacree).

In my line of work, though, most of the engineers are more of a trial and error type, and being intuitive and logical I tend to find solutions that work quite quickly.

One thing I hate most is when I have an idea that I know will work but people insist on "stopping" and "mulling over" other solutions. This is especially annoying if it can be seen that the idea is in fact working, but just taking time. In my experience "mulling over" other solutions tends to actually result in more time being wasted.


You need to work in an organization that is desperate for solutions. The mulling then takes an hour or two at most.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:49 am

chrismb wrote:
Skipjack wrote:I dont separate science and engineering as strictly as other people do. For me one can not exist without the other.

I agree there was once a time when the ingenious exploitation of what the universe offers us humans covered both science and engineering. It is the politicos with their trophy projects that has perverted that 18th century model.


Gigantism seems to be a feature of socialist projects. Why? Big projects employ more people.

Think of small fusion. Why do the big fusion boys dismiss it? If it works and is cheap (relatively) they will have to go looking for new work.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:55 am

TallDave wrote:
What if Walt Disney had hired Farnsworth back in the 50-60's, combined him with Buzzard and some brighties from NASA. Then would be parking Disneyland in Baghdad and Tehran by now? Would the Kurds need not to worry about restoring Kurdistan involving pushing on 5 international borders?


I've always wondered what Islam would look without the sack of Baghdad. The Abbasids were relatively liberal.

The poor Kurds. They greeted us as liberators. They're more pro-America than America. And they still have very little prospect of an independent homeland.

Engineers are the grey tribe.

http://pajamasmedia.com/ejectejecteject ... /tribes-2/

Then, in the other corner, there is the Grey Tribe – the grey of reinforced concrete. This is a Tribe where emotion is repressed because Emotion Clouds Judgment. This is the world of Quadratic Equations and Stress Risers and Loads Torsional, Compressive and Tensile, a place where Reality Can Ruin Your Best Day, the place where Murphy mercilessly picks off the Weak and the Incompetent, where the Speed Limit is 186,282.36 mph, where every bridge has a Failure Load and levees come in 50 year, 100 year and 1000 Year Flood Flavors.

The Grey Tribe motto is, near as I can tell, THINGS BREAK SOMETIMES AND PLEASE DON’T LET IT BE MY BRIDGE.


“Physicists dream of Nobel prizes, engineers dream of mishaps.” Hendrik Tennekes

Every time an aircraft goes down I pray: please don't let it be something I did.

Just by random chance (is there any other kind) some one who did good work will have a failure and people will get killed. The deal is: if it is random the good guys will suffer much less frequently than the careless.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Josh Cryer
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Postby Josh Cryer » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:04 am

MSimon wrote:You need to work in an organization that is desperate for solutions. The mulling then takes an hour or two at most.


Eh, if I let them have their way they'd stand around all day smoking, drinking soda, thinking of ways to do something. :lol:

"Get er done!" is my motto.

Example, we had to move a bobcat a little while ago. I loaded one of the ramp pieces into the truck, expecting my coworker to get the other one (to be fair I can't remember telling him to get it or not, but they were 2x8s, pretty heavy, so I assumed he knew I didn't get them both in one trip). We get to the location 14 miles downrange and low and behold, one ramp piece. 20 minute drive back, to get the other piece, so we stood there thinking of things we could do.

One idea? Cut the wood in half. It would result in a larger angle but we had the tools. Guys started digging for a hand saw in the tool box (didn't have any electric tools if I remember correctly, don't usually bring them for errands).

There was a large dirt mound in the area and I stated that I had an idea, backed the truck right up into the dirt mound (bed of the truck somewhat dug in), and then it was obvious to everyone in the area what to do. Drove the bobcat right on in without a bit of fuss.

(I know you can self-load bobcats but this one couldn't do it with its meager bucket, or at least, I wouldn't have risked my job over it.)
Science is what we have learned about how not to fool ourselves about the way the world is.

choff
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Postby choff » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:38 am

In 'The Dilbert Principal' engineers are said to see the world as a 'sub optimized system,' something I think all navy nukes would probably agree with.(pun intended)
CHoff

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:56 am

choff wrote:In 'The Dilbert Principal' engineers are said to see the world as a 'sub optimized system,' something I think all navy nukes would probably agree with.(pun intended)


Where do us surface nukes fit in?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

seedload
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Postby seedload » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:59 am

K.I.S.S - keep it simple, stupid

This is how a good engineer thinks. "Keep It Simple" because complicated systems are unmanagable. "Stupid" because good engineers are humble enough to admit their own weaknesses and limits.

Two traits in one saying that give you all you need to know about why a lot of engineers are right wing nut jobs. Simple small government with stupid people staying out of the way.

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:04 am

seedload wrote:K.I.S.S - keep it simple, stupid

This is how a good engineer thinks. "Keep It Simple" because complicated systems are unmanagable. "Stupid" because good engineers are humble enough to admit their own weaknesses and limits.

Two traits in one saying that give you all you need to know about why a lot of engineers are right wing nut jobs. Simple small government with stupid people staying out of the way.


You can't keep stupid people out of government. What you can do is keep it small to limit the damage.

Stress relievers and crack propagation stoppers. And insofar as possible avoid brittle materials for load carrying or apply big safety factors. And watch out for fatigue in materials that yield.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

seedload
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Postby seedload » Sun Jan 17, 2010 5:12 am

MSimon wrote:
seedload wrote:K.I.S.S - keep it simple, stupid

This is how a good engineer thinks. "Keep It Simple" because complicated systems are unmanagable. "Stupid" because good engineers are humble enough to admit their own weaknesses and limits.

Two traits in one saying that give you all you need to know about why a lot of engineers are right wing nut jobs. Simple small government with stupid people staying out of the way.


You can't keep stupid people out of government. What you can do is keep it small to limit the damage.

Stress relievers and crack propagation stoppers. And insofar as possible avoid brittle materials for load carrying or apply big safety factors. And watch out for fatigue in materials that yield.


Yep. When I say stupid people I mean all people. All people are stupid - including me. KISS is usually used in the context of your own stupidity.

I suspect people like Obama don't understand how profoundly stupid we all really are. They want to take it over and run it for the simple reason that they don't understand that they (or anyone else) are inherently incapable of doing so. And, even if they could, the assumption that the next bozo will be able to take over is foolish. That is the heart of this. KISS is not considered. Not the beauty of simplicity. Not the self reflection of being wise enough to know your own limits.

The MTBF for our government is growing. Too many parts.

Josh Cryer
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Postby Josh Cryer » Sun Jan 17, 2010 5:25 am

MSimon,

The MTBF for our government is growing. Too many parts.


EUs is bigger.

We can't ever become completely like them, but pockets already have and it will continue.

Denver has banned all gun possession, for instance (in an open carry state like CO). Smoking is now publicly banned in the very states that grow tobacco. I won't even go in to the regressive taxes that are smoking taxes (that actually makes me upset, one of the few things).

Could rant right now but I don't feel like it. :P
Science is what we have learned about how not to fool ourselves about the way the world is.

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:21 am

Josh Cryer wrote:MSimon,

The MTBF for our government is growing. Too many parts.


EUs is bigger.

We can't ever become completely like them, but pockets already have and it will continue.

Denver has banned all gun possession, for instance (in an open carry state like CO). Smoking is now publicly banned in the very states that grow tobacco. I won't even go in to the regressive taxes that are smoking taxes (that actually makes me upset, one of the few things).

Could rant right now but I don't feel like it. :P


Schizophrenia and Tobacco
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Josh Cryer
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Postby Josh Cryer » Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:45 am

Believe it or not I don't trust the peer review unwaveringly like you might think, and I think that smoker cancer related deaths are more environmental than they are directly related to smoking. I discovered that Japanese men smoke several times more than American men but have extremely low cancer rates in comparison. It turns out that it is likely that obesity and carcinogens in our environment are the cause, and not just "tobacco smoke" in general. Fossil fuels are the largest source of, say, cadmium in the environment (along with many many other nasty things). And tobacco, being grown outdoors, gets a lot of it absorbed into its leaves (over a pack a day, every day, for thirty year habit).

(The difference between AGW and smoker caused cancer research? AGW has thousands of peer reviewed papers, the "Japanese smoker paradox" has, well, about 3. It does not "refute" that smoking causes cancer, mind you, or that smoking is "safe." It just shows that the direct causes are clearly more complicated than simply smoking.)

Fortunately many liberals I know (mostly at DU) are *real* liberals and defend smokers. But they're probably a minority on that site and in general.
Science is what we have learned about how not to fool ourselves about the way the world is.

DeltaV
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Postby DeltaV » Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:30 am

MSimon wrote:
choff wrote:In 'The Dilbert Principal' engineers are said to see the world as a 'sub optimized system,' something I think all navy nukes would probably agree with.(pun intended)


Where do us surface nukes fit in?


Dilbert is a (land) surface nuke:

Image
Edit: fix dead link

[I also once worked for the pointy-haired boss]
Last edited by DeltaV on Mon Feb 08, 2016 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.


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