mach thrusters

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GIThruster
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Postby GIThruster » Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:22 pm

chrismb wrote:....somehow this simple request, for a full disclosure diagram, has strained the very limits of tolerable questions, in its proponents' eyes.


Make a sensible request, Chris. Which thruster design are you interested in and why can't you find what you're looking for posted over at NSF? Paul has posted up stuff like that many times, and many of the papers presented over the years have sufficient detail for you to do your own replication. I honestly can't see what the whining is all about.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

chrismb
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Postby chrismb » Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:26 pm

Point to one, then. I have not seen any such full disclosures.

I could spend an hour listing all the websites I've visited that don't show such a diagram, and still I'd not have shown that one doesn't exist, whereas all you have to do is post one...but you can't be bothered to?

GIThruster
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Postby GIThruster » Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:31 pm

chrismb wrote:I want to see a diagram of what is involved in establishing a repeatable, verifiable 'M-E effect' experiment.


The simplest experiment to run is the rotator, since it does not require a thrust stand or vacuum.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2010AIPC.1208..227W

I'm sure if you search you can find the paper for free. I just haven't got the time to do this for you right now.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

GIThruster
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Postby GIThruster » Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:37 pm

Here's a decade old one for you:

http://physics.fullerton.edu/~jimw/staif2000.pdf

You'll find your diagram as fig. 13.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

chrismb
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Postby chrismb » Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:46 pm

How does that tell me how to build the thruster? Fig 13 is just a block diagram for an electric circuit. It doesn't even show me where the power comes from!

There are two arrows that point off the page that say {rather hopefully} "to test chamber and test units"

...oh boy.....

D'you understand what information is necessary so one person can repeat the experiment of another? and do you think this is enough?

chrismb
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Postby chrismb » Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:48 pm

PS, it is also very obvious that there are no power supplies on board with the mobile masses.

GIThruster
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Postby GIThruster » Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:48 pm

I know its enough. Someone in London is doing it right now.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

chrismb
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Postby chrismb » Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:50 pm

GIThruster wrote:I know its enough. Someone in London is doing it right now.
Are you mad? There are two arrows that point towards a block of text that says "to test chamber and test units", and you seriously are trying to tell me that this is enough to repeat the experiment!?!?!?!?

...a..b..s..o..l..u..t..e.. joke......

GIThruster
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Postby GIThruster » Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:58 pm

Chris, read the paper.

Read all the papers.

There is more than enough info out there to repeat half a dozen of these experiments should someone decide that's what they want to do. Proof of this fact is that people are doing just this. One is an EE professor in London. He had the common sense to contact Jim some months ago for some pointers, but he's apparently been doing this in school as a project, and he hasn't been heard from in months because he has what's necessary to do the experiment.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

chrismb
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Postby chrismb » Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:21 pm

GIThruster wrote:He had the common sense to contact Jim some months ago for some pointers
It doesn't strike me at all as being 'common sense' to contact the first experimenter. You risk an accumulation of acquired experimenter bias. No thanks. I would tend to assume that if such contacts have to be made, that it implicitly demonstrates that the investigator has provided insufficient information in the public domain for their experiment to be repeated independently.

Look, this whole deal is right in there with the best of the 'pathological sciences'. Let's just use Langmuir's check-list;

* The maximum effect that is observed is produced by a causative agent of barely detectable intensity, and the magnitude of the effect is substantially independent of the intensity of the cause.

Certainly barely detectable...

Check.


* The effect is of a magnitude that remains close to the limit of detectability, or many measurements are necessary because of the very low statistical significance of the results.

Check.


* There are claims of great accuracy.

hmm... getting there...

* Fantastic theories contrary to experience are suggested.

Check.


* Criticisms are met by ad hoc excuses.

Check.


* The ratio of supporters to critics rises and then falls gradually to oblivion.

that one is a retrospective, but it's looking like it'll fit.


So, I'm pretty darned sure Langmuir would regard this as comfortably within his definition of 'pathological science'.

Plug in the wall and [oh, fancy that!] 100uN.... this one has everything to prove and nothing substantive yet to show....

GIThruster
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Postby GIThruster » Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:37 pm

chrismb wrote:It doesn't strike me at all as being 'common sense' to contact the first experimenter. You risk an accumulation of acquired experimenter bias. No thanks. I would tend to assume that if such contacts have to be made, that it implicitly demonstrates that the investigator has provided insufficient information in the public domain for their experiment to be repeated independently.


Chris, the thrusters are all patented or pending. It is a violation of patent law here in the US to do this work without a research license. Because there is no way to make money with a research license, a handshake is really enough, but technically, you cannot do this work without contacting the patent holder.

Apart from that, it's just common sense when you try to do something difficult, you talk with those who have done it before. Your concerns are childish and a bit crazy.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Giorgio
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Location: China, Italy

Postby Giorgio » Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:41 pm

chrismb wrote:
GIThruster wrote:I know its enough. Someone in London is doing it right now.
Are you mad? There are two arrows that point towards a block of text that says "to test chamber and test units", and you seriously are trying to tell me that this is enough to repeat the experiment!?!?!?!?

...a..b..s..o..l..u..t..e.. joke......


ROTFL, this thread is becoming funnier and funnier :lol:

KitemanSA
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Postby KitemanSA » Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:43 pm

GIThruster wrote: Chris, the thrusters are all patented or pending. It is a violation of patent law here in the US to do this work without a research license. Because there is no way to make money with a research license, a handshake is really enough, but technically, you cannot do this work without contacting the patent holder.
This is not true. The patent laws may prohibit the unlicenced building and use of this technology in the research of OTHER technology, but not in the research of THIS technology itself. Patents protect MARKETING, not study.

GIThruster
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Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Postby GIThruster » Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:46 pm

Sorry Kite, but you're confusing a commercial license with a research license. In order to do research on a patented or pending IP, you have to have the latter. As I said, since there is no money involved, a handshake will suffice, but that is the way the law is written.

Just being honest about the rest, M-E does not fit the criteria for pathological science. I think it's pretty obvious Chris is just in a poor mood and looking for a fight. Doesn't matter what answers he gets, he's going to continue acting like a spoiled child, and Georgio is going to keep waving him on.

So I'll just say it one last time and be done--anyone interested in doing the this work is welcome to do so. If you want me to connect you with the technical group in order to catch you up to speed I'm happy to do so. If you'd rather work alone, I suggest you start by reading the papers.

Don't follow Chris' example of making up your mind well in advance of your knowledge of the subject. That's just a fool doing what a fool does.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Giorgio
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Location: China, Italy

Postby Giorgio » Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:59 pm

GIThruster wrote:Don't follow Chris' example of making up your mind well in advance of your knowledge of the subject. That's just a fool doing what a fool does.


Yeah, don't follow Chris example of asking plain questions and clarifications. This attitude is not wellcome in the research fields that GIT likes.

Blind belief and silence is all what he asks for. Make him happy.


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