There is no such thing as clean coal

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KitemanSA
Posts: 6179
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA

Re: There is no such thing as clean coal

Post by KitemanSA »

Helius wrote:Midwestern coal plants are devastating to the Adirondacks.
MSimon asked about Arsenic, which I took as a subtle request for more explanation as to how the plants are devastating... I won't be so subtle.

Would you please explain how this is happening. Specifics please, not just 'We burn too much @#@@# coal'.

Helius
Posts: 465
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:48 pm
Location: Syracuse, New York

Re: There is no such thing as clean coal

Post by Helius »

KitemanSA wrote:
Helius wrote:Midwestern coal plants are devastating to the Adirondacks.
MSimon asked about Arsenic, which I took as a subtle request for more explanation as to how the plants are devastating... I won't be so subtle.

Would you please explain how this is happening. Specifics please, not just 'We burn too much @#@@# coal'.
We can start with Methyl mercury:
http://www.wnbz.com/February%202009/022 ... ictory.htm

Much more devastating is the Acid rain problem caused by upwind (midwest) coal plants:
http://classes.colgate.edu/aleventer/ge ... acid14.htm
The problem for the Adirondacks is that these highlands wring out acid from the rain as air masses expand over them, and this region has absolutely no limestone to counter it.

Midwest coal plants are absolutely devastating to the Adirondacks.

Giorgio
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Location: China, Italy

Post by Giorgio »

MSimon wrote:
Giorgio wrote:This is a very old technological idea.
Calcium Oxide (lime) is heavily used to reduce the sulfur emission from power plants burning low grade carbon (carbon with high sulfur content) by transforming it into Calcium Sulfate (gypsum). Using this same technology to capture CO2 would require before everything else a complete cleaning of the CO2 stream from all impurities (including Uranium), otherwise the produced CaCO3 will have very little (if none) market value.
So true. And we need to get the uranium in sand removed before it can be used in concrete.

URANIUM

We are doomed.

Do you know why dirt is dirty? It has uranium in it.

We need to clean up our dirt.

And rocks. Lots of rocks will need their uranium removed.

And people - people have uranium in them. That will require extensive cleaning.
Uhm, it looks like you are talking just for the fun of it.

We are not doomed as a matter of fact, but there is not much to be happy about burning some grade of coal to make power, as it is not uranium that kills, it is its concentration that kills.
While it is true that many mineral sands and rocks have an higher uranium content than some type of coal, it is not an absolute truth. Some mines produce coal with an higher than average uranium and thorium content and, when it is burned, the volatile ash has 10 to 30 times the content of the original coal. I can assure you it is not healthy to breath.

We have a coal power plant 30 Km from where I live, it was built in the 60's without taking into consideration the predominant winds, that, unfortunately for us, blow directly toward the 3 major cities of the area. In the 50 Km downwind of the stacks there is the higher concentration of leukemia cases of all the region, with rates 6 to 7 times higher than just 10Km abovewind of the stack.
There in nothing funny in this.

I personally prefer to see Uranium burned in a nuclear reactor and switch off all the coal based power plants, at least until a better solution is found.

Giorgio
Posts: 3065
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:15 pm
Location: China, Italy

Re: There is no such thing as clean coal

Post by Giorgio »

KitemanSA wrote:
Helius wrote:Midwestern coal plants are devastating to the Adirondacks.
MSimon asked about Arsenic, which I took as a subtle request for more explanation as to how the plants are devastating... I won't be so subtle.

Would you please explain how this is happening. Specifics please, not just 'We burn too much @#@@# coal'.
Sulfur content of the coal, when burned is transformed in sulfur dioxide SO2, this combined with humidity of the air gives formation to Sulphuric acid (H2SO4).
This is the main component of the so called "Acid Rains".


Edit to give more data:
Normally coal has a sulphur content of between 0,1 and 6%. Sulfur rich coal (which is more cheap) is normally diluted with sulfur free coal to an average of 1 - 1.5% maximum sulphur content.
On the stack, electrostatic and rain type filter do catch most of the produced sulfur in the smoke, but a percentage of 3 to 6 % of the sulfur present in the coal still escapes from the stack in form of SO2, a good part of which converts to H2SO4.
Last edited by Giorgio on Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Helius
Posts: 465
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Location: Syracuse, New York

Post by Helius »

There is also a heavy Nitric acid component to the Acid rain too.

Giorgio
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Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:15 pm
Location: China, Italy

Post by Giorgio »

Helius wrote:There is also a heavy Nitric acid component to the Acid rain too.
Absolutely correct, I just considered the sulfur component to make the post short and as it is the most devastating one.

But to be precise we should consider also the effect of the NOx component of the emission.

flying_eagle
Posts: 62
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:14 pm

Post by flying_eagle »

Ironic the worse producer of GHG, coal produces CO2 at 2tons/kwh compared to 1.3tons/kwh of natural gas use could be stupidly used to help itself. Yet, I'm not sure I would use one of its pollutants to counter another one of its pollutants. But hey, some one with vested interest in coal more than likely will suggest it.
http://www.wired.com/science/planeteart ... ntPage=all

I don't agree with coal use and it should be left in the ground. It's one of several carbon fuels (like tar-sands, shale) that shouldn't be used as to clean it up makes it just too expensive and guess what, no one wants to accept that cost. Time to invest the money toward fusion!

BenTC
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:54 am

Re: There is no such thing as clean coal

Post by BenTC »

KitemanSA wrote:
Helius wrote:Midwestern coal plants are devastating to the Adirondacks.
MSimon asked about Arsenic, which I took as a subtle request for more explanation as to how the plants are devastating...
It would be interesting to know the statistics of swine flu in areas affected by arsenic from coal fired power plants.
Science Daily: Swine Flu: Influenza A (H1N1) Susceptibility Linked To Common Levels Of Arsenic Exposure

Roger
Posts: 788
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:03 am
Location: Metro NY

Post by Roger »

Helius wrote:

Clean coal is a comical ruse.

The equivalent physical potential energy output of that much coal could be represented by 500 tons of fissionable material converted to fission product.
I see that as potentially *super* clean.
In general terms I must agree.
About 2 years ago Jerome A Paris blogged over at the Oil Drum, concerning 5 coal industry reports on world coal supply. On a planetary scale coal is no answer past 2030. Fission could/would clearly be. But of course Bussard reactors will be the hot item by then, :-).

At higher elevations Red Spruce trees have taken a beating over 25 yrs. They are particularly vulnerable to breathing the acid mist thru the stomota.
I like the p-B11 resonance peak at 50 KV acceleration. In2 years we'll know.

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