Electric Vehicle Charging Stations

Discuss life, the universe, and everything with other members of this site. Get to know your fellow polywell enthusiasts.

Moderators: tonybarry, MSimon

MSimon
Posts: 14332
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

KitemanSA wrote:Beacon Power, the developers of high-tech flywheel energy storage systems has "Frequency Regulation" as their primary business plan right now.

I suspect that if very rapid charge rate EVs get built, the big business for Beacon Power and their competators will be to soak up energy slowly across the hours and provide it in few-minute bursts to cars at filling stations. But only if these "2 minute charge" systems actually happen.
What they mean by frequency regulation is holding up the line when a large load comes on line. As more loads become electronically regulated (esp. large motor loads) this becomes less necessary.

If the technology was really good there is a huge market for battery replacements in cell towers and telco central offices. I have been following Beacon Power for years and wish them well. But they don't seem to have the required energy density for even lead-acid replacement.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Diogenes
Posts: 6958
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

pfrit wrote:
MSimon wrote:
Why are you so easily provoked?
It is my nature.
Are you sure it isn't your nuture? :)

MSimon sometimes reminds me of Captain Jack Aubrey in "Master and Commander, The far side of the World" when he responds to the Doctor on how to thank him for stopping in the Galapagos Islands.


" Name a shrub after me— something prickly and hard to eradicate."



Image




Great movie.

MSimon
Posts: 14332
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

Diogenes wrote:MSimon sometimes reminds me of Captain Jack Aubrey in "Master and Commander, The far side of the World" when he responds to the Doctor on how to thank him for stopping in the Galapagos Islands.


" Name a shrub after me— something prickly and hard to eradicate."
I'm going to have to frame that.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
Posts: 14332
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

Diogenes,

I told that one to my mate and she nodded sagely. Thanks for that!
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

KitemanSA
Posts: 6114
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA

Post by KitemanSA »

MSimon wrote: What they mean by frequency regulation is holding up the line when a large load comes on line. As more loads become electronically regulated (esp. large motor loads) this becomes less necessary.
True, but the more folks want instant (read very fast) charging, this becomes more necessary.
MSimon wrote: If the technology was really good there is a huge market for battery replacements in cell towers and telco central offices. I have been following Beacon Power for years and wish them well. But they don't seem to have the required energy density for even lead-acid replacement.
It is unlikely to be useful for vehicular use until such time as carbon nano-tubes become cost effective. Once they do, the flywheel will be able to store WAY more than now. None-the-less, there are many static applications where they do better than L-A batteries; high power with low loss for instance.

MSimon
Posts: 14332
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

KitemanSA wrote:
MSimon wrote: What they mean by frequency regulation is holding up the line when a large load comes on line. As more loads become electronically regulated (esp. large motor loads) this becomes less necessary.
True, but the more folks want instant (read very fast) charging, this becomes more necessary.
MSimon wrote: If the technology was really good there is a huge market for battery replacements in cell towers and telco central offices. I have been following Beacon Power for years and wish them well. But they don't seem to have the required energy density for even lead-acid replacement.
It is unlikely to be useful for vehicular use until such time as carbon nano-tubes become cost effective. Once they do, the flywheel will be able to store WAY more than now. None-the-less, there are many static applications where they do better than L-A batteries; high power with low loss for instance.
I don't like flywheels for autos. You either get torque problems transmitted to the wheels or 3D gimbaling problems. I do like them for charging stations. Even so there are power limits. You can charge slow and discharge fast. But fast enough for a 5 minute charge? And if you can do that you probably need a flywheel per car per day. (very rough estimate but gives the idea) Costs mount up.

If they are better than L-A batteries why aren't telcos using them? They would love to get rid of all that lead.

BTW they don't have to wait for CNTs. Fiberglass should do to start. Plus FG has a nice safe failure mode vs chunks of steel.

My take from my limited study is that any kind of flywheel is limited by the strength of the mandrel/shaft the flywheel "stuff" is mounted on. You need a prestress to get extraordinary performance.

I think this is where a ME needs to chime in.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

BenTC
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:54 am

Post by BenTC »

pfrit wrote:
MSimon wrote:
Why are you so easily provoked?
It is my nature.
Are you sure it isn't your nuture? :)
Are you just looking for an argument?

BenTC
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:54 am

Post by BenTC »

I remember a while ago reading about regenerative braking on the London tube, where a flywheel sat next to the station. I couldn't find it again, but this is close: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/sing ... -bill.html.

The main advantages were the rapid charge/discharge, deep cycles and repeatability every few minutes.

MSimon
Posts: 14332
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

BenTC wrote:
pfrit wrote:
MSimon wrote: It is my nature.
Are you sure it isn't your nuture? :)
Are you just looking for an argument?
Depends. You have something in mind?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

KitemanSA
Posts: 6114
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA

Post by KitemanSA »

MSimon wrote: I don't like flywheels for autos. You either get torque problems transmitted to the wheels or 3D gimbaling problems. I do like them for charging stations. Even so there are power limits. You can charge slow and discharge fast. But fast enough for a 5 minute charge? And if you can do that you probably need a flywheel per car per day. (very rough estimate but gives the idea) Costs mount up.
Singleton flywheels tend to introduce problems. I have seen plans for hex packs of counter rotating flywheels which eliminate the gyroscopic issues.
MSimon wrote: If they are better than L-A batteries why aren't telcos using them? They would love to get rid of all that lead.
As I understand it, they are, slowly and cautiously. Standard practice for telcos. By the way, flywheels aren't all that great in energy density just yet, so energy storage isn't the big issue. It is POWER storage where they mostly shine right now. In most cases, are the thecos using L-A for energy or power storage?
MSimon wrote: BTW they don't have to wait for CNTs. Fiberglass should do to start. Plus FG has a nice safe failure mode vs chunks of steel.
They already use carbon fiber for the flywheel which has a better specific velocity than the best glass fiber. Only CNT offers a significant step up, and what a step!
MSimon wrote: My take from my limited study is that any kind of flywheel is limited by the strength of the mandrel/shaft the flywheel "stuff" is mounted on. You need a prestress to get extraordinary performance.
Typically not. The bearing plays a BIG part in the system, and beacon is using alternating permanent magnet systems for bearings. The same setup that Inductrak uses.
MSimon wrote: I think this is where a ME needs to chime in.
Funny you should mention that. I are one! :D

Diogenes
Posts: 6958
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

MSimon wrote:Diogenes,

I told that one to my mate and she nodded sagely. Thanks for that!
You're welcome! Master and Commander was a great movie, and that was my favorite line from the movie. Have you seen it?

MSimon
Posts: 14332
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

Diogenes wrote:
MSimon wrote:Diogenes,

I told that one to my mate and she nodded sagely. Thanks for that!
You're welcome! Master and Commander was a great movie, and that was my favorite line from the movie. Have you seen it?
Only clips. It looks like I'll have to rent it.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
Posts: 14332
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

Kiteman,

My understanding is that HS steel flywheels have no worse energy density than LA batteries. Where they shine is in lifetime. No changing out batteries every 4 years. No lead. No acid fumes.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

KitemanSA
Posts: 6114
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA

Post by KitemanSA »

MSimon wrote:Where they shine is in lifetime. No changing out batteries every 4 years. No lead. No acid fumes.
That too! :)

Who uses steel flywheels, other than as part of an ICE?

MSimon
Posts: 14332
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

KitemanSA wrote:
MSimon wrote:Where they shine is in lifetime. No changing out batteries every 4 years. No lead. No acid fumes.
That too! :)

Who uses steel flywheels, other than as part of an ICE?
They are not too bad from a cost/KWh if you can stand the weight. IIRC Beacon uses them for their current models.

No they don't

http://www.beaconpower.com/products/about-flywheels.asp
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Post Reply