Healthcare & rationing

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TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

Okay, here's where I stand. I am definitely for healthcare for all. I don't care as much how it happens, but it seems silly to me that we, for example, find it perfectly acceptable to mandate car insurance, but not health insurance.
Your premise is wrong. Automobile loss insurance is not mandated. Automobile liability is mandated, for the sensible reason that a car is a deadly weapon that can cause huge damage to others.
so it does with healthcare
So it does with virtually everything -- housing, food, cable, phone, etc. People default on all kinds of debt -- but medical debt is not a large portion of those defaults, partly because there are state laws on how medical debt is treated which generally make paying it back very easy, and partly because people are often able to obtain charity privately or from Medicaid.
My point really is is what the heck is up with all the hoopla about rationing care for the terminally ill?
People don't like the idea of a gov't board deciding whether Grandma really needs that new hip or is going to die anyway, as Obama suggested.
I also don't get the idea that the GOP doesn't think healthcare is a "right" that everyone should be entitled to, yet at the same time apparently believe that if someone does pay for insurance (no matter how cheap the plan) they are suddenly entitled to every medical weapon in humankind's arsenal no matter how dire an individuals situation or how unlikely the procedure is to help.
They don't, obviously. They just don't want the gov't making that call instead of you and your doctor.
Neither do I get the idea that it is a crime to look at the health systems of countries which have a much higher satisfaction rate and much lower cost for clues on how we might be able to lower our own healthcare costs
This is a point of factual confusion. The U.S. has, by far, the best medical care in the world. We have the best cancer survival rates (in some cases, 4 or 5 times better than socialized systems). We have 5 times more MRIs and other diagnostics per capita. We do twice as many organ transplants per capita as Europe. We have much shorter wait times for specialists, which in many cases saves lives.

Now much of that expense is marginal; e.g. nine of ten MRIs don't find a problem -- but that's why we have better outcomes: that tenth MRI finds early cancer or etc. Of course, in the end ALL health care is marginally useless; so far, everyone that was born has eventually died despite all medical care, and the outlook isn't good for those alive today.

We know why costs are lower in those countries: rationed care (which I've detailed above) and price controls. For services, price controls lead to shortages -- it is so hard to find specialists in socialist countries that in Canada they are awarded to patients by lottery, while in the UK people are pulling their own teeth out. As for drugs, price control is extremely unfair to America: we essentially pay for the R&D of every new drug developed anywhere in the world, and everyone else gets a free ride. But the alternative is that no one pays for new drugs, which will mean no new drugs. So, as with defense, America once again shoulders the world's burden.

Fortunately, we can afford to. Because we've embraced the free market, we are the richest group of 300 million people you can assemble using national borders. Hopefully, rather than making America poorer with more socialism, we can eventually get the rest of the world to join us in prosperity.

ravingdave
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Re: Healthcare & rationing

Post by ravingdave »

Maui wrote:Okay, here's where I stand. I am definitely for healthcare for all. I don't care as much how it happens, but it seems silly to me that we, for example, find it perfectly acceptable to mandate car insurance, but not health insurance. Just as uninsured motorists will have accidents , uninsured people will have health problems and just as with car accidents the cost will end up falling on others, so it does with healthcare-- whether its the cost that gets built into what the hospitals and doctors charge, aid programs funded by government, creditors that don't get paid due to bankruptcy or even just the tax breaks those paying for healthcare out of pocket.
Here's a breath of fresh air for everyone. I am opposed to government mandating ANY insurance, including car insurance.

Insurance is nothing more than legal gambling. They are betting you won't need it, you are betting you will.

Insurance (and government mucking in it ) is the REASON health costs are too high. If people paid their own bills, they would tell the doctor or hospital to go take a flying leap (which I personally have done several times) when the costs become unreasonable.


An example. Several Years ago, my girlfriend developed a cyst in her neck while having no insurance. Since she didn't know how to live in the real world, I decided to help her solve this problem. I contacted a surgical clinic and asked them to examine her. The doctor did a needle biopsy and determined the cyst to be benign, but it needed to be removed none the less. I was informed that the doctor would preform the surgery for $1,200.00 if it was paid for by insurance, $820.00 if it were not. The Doctor's business administrator informed me that the procedure was more involved than the surgical clinic would do in house, so I needed to contact one of the Hospitals in the area to obtain an operating room.

After contacting one of the local hospitals, I was informed that an operating room would cost $11,000.00 for a one hour procedure. (I had given the procedure code to the hospital business office, and that is the cost they gave me. ) I politely thanked them for the information and hung up, at which time I called them every nasty name of which I could think.

Undeterred, I contacted the business office of the surgical clinic and asked the administrator what might be in an operating room that is worth 11 times the amount of money i'm going to be paying the man that does 100% of the work ? She said that "when you put it that way, it does indeed seem ridiculous."

To make the story short, They decided that they could do the procedure as an outpatient procedure at their surgical clinic and the total bill altogether ended up being $3,500.00 .

If this had been an insurance deal, the cost would have been $12,200. Note the savings ?



Insurance in health care is what I refer to as "Economic Pollution." It is polluting the natural economic environment to the detriment of everyone who has to breath in it. As Air Pollution makes it hard to breath, economic Pollution makes it hard to breath economically.

I prefer both my air and my economy to be clear of pollution.



David

TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

. I'm pissed at the GOP for selling politics of fear (again), but also disappointed because I really believed in Obama's promise of a post-partisanship era.
Let's be realistic: who is really selling fear? Obama keeps throwing out scary numbers like "47 million uninsured" (the actual number is closer to 6 million, when you take out people who make >$75K, are illegal immigrants, etc) and talking about a "crisis." Obama's whole pitch comes down "You better let the government take over health care or terrible things will happen."

The GOP's fearmongering can be summed up as "If you let the government take over health care terrible things will happen." That seems much more likely to most people.

A friend was recently telling me how in the 1980s when he was escorting USSR athletes who came over to compete in the Olympics, all they wanted to do was go to KMart and gawk at all the stuff on the shelves. He said this had a large effect on him.

And people wonder why there are "angry mobs" opposing socialist medicine at these town halls.

Helius
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another clunker.

Post by Helius »

It's hilarious (but tragic) that we're just getting off a program where government subsidized $4,500.00 per automobile trade-in, and even the car dealers are glad it's over. This is just after the house passed the Waxman-Markey pander-fiasco. Where's the IFR?

Now they say trust us with your healthcare? The clunkers are in congress, too bad we can't trade 'em in.

olivier
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Post by olivier »

Talldave wrote: The U.S. has, by far, the best medical care in the world.
Why not, but against which criterion? It is not life expectancy (worst among G8), not infant mortality (worst among G8), not per capita expenditure (worst among G8) but there may be many, many other criteria. I am really trying to understand what the US people expect from their health care system, but that is unclear to me.

Aero
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Post by Aero »

Talldave wrote:
The U.S. has, by far, the best medical care in the world.
Why not, but against which criterion? It is not life expectancy (worst among G8 ), not infant mortality (worst among G8 ), not per capita expenditure (worst among G8 ) but there may be many, many other criteria.
The criteria is simply that Americans who can afford it can get to see a doctor on short notice. Conveniently over looking the fact that if one has the money, this is also true everywhere, all over the world.

I need dental insurance, but no one is talking about that. Of course dental insurance is cheap relative to health insurance, but in absolute terms, dental insurance is still quite expensive, doesn't cover much and takes months and months for the insurance company to approve or disallow any special procedures. (Removal of impacted wisdom teeth, dental appliances, deep cleaning, ... )
Aero

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

pfrit wrote:
MSimon wrote: If the government option is so good there are two things I'd like to see.

1. Fixing of Medicare and Medicaid. First.
2. Congress Critters be forced to join any plan they enact.
Fixing Medicare is not the problem. It is part of the system that people want replaced/fixed/fiddled with.
Well that is comforting. The government designs a broken system and will fix it my making it bigger and deciding what your choices will be with no recourse. BTW at least 60% of Americans are satisfied with their current health care system.
I've felt that there was a simple path to public health care that would work safely. The US Government runs a nationwide complete health care system. It is called the VA. Fix the VA. Expand it by buying failing hospitals and clinics. Fix their failing culture.
Ah. Yes. The VA. It has been broken for so long. You wonder why no one has noticed. Probably because those in the system have no recourse.
Expand the enrollment beyond veterans to include those in medicare and medicaid. Expand the enrollment to people who wish to buy into the system. This kills many birds with one stone. This may take a while, but could be done reasonably and safely within 8 years and every step is a positive one that all can agree on.
The trouble with that idea is that the system can't be fixed without letting Government contracts and changing laws. Neither process works well. The government is chock full of bad managers whose main incentive is inefficiency which garners bigger budgets and more underlings.
If our government can't fix the VA and turn it into a world class system, how do you suppose that they are going to be able to do it to the MUCH larger regular health care industry?
So true.
I honestly believe that this is a viable option.
The triumph of hope over experience.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

I admit, I don't know that details of what is being debated, but, for example, the Post Office doesn't profit when it loses customers.
True. But the government covers any shortfall.

As our glorious President has stated. The Post Office is always in trouble. While UPS and FedEx mostly profit.

With government the incentives are wrong.

Private companies profit from delivering equal or higher quality of service at the same or lower cost. With failure always hanging over their heads as a goad.

Will a government "service" be allowed to fail?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

The criteria is simply that Americans who can afford it can get to see a doctor on short notice. Conveniently over looking the fact that if one has the money, this is also true everywhere, all over the world.
At least 60% of Americans are happy with that.

So much so that more than a few Canadians come to America to get their health care problems serviced.

I don't think this argument matters much in any case. Health care collapse will not be legislated in America this year.

===

My understanding of the left:

Private monopolies are bad but government monopolies are good. Because government service changes people's souls.

Such faith is touching.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

pfrit
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Post by pfrit »

MSimon wrote:
pfrit wrote:
MSimon wrote: If the government option is so good there are two things I'd like to see.

1. Fixing of Medicare and Medicaid. First.
2. Congress Critters be forced to join any plan they enact.
Fixing Medicare is not the problem. It is part of the system that people want replaced/fixed/fiddled with.
Well that is comforting. The government designs a broken system and will fix it my making it bigger and deciding what your choices will be with no recourse. BTW at least 60% of Americans are satisfied with their current health care system.
I've felt that there was a simple path to public health care that would work safely. The US Government runs a nationwide complete health care system. It is called the VA. Fix the VA. Expand it by buying failing hospitals and clinics. Fix their failing culture.
Ah. Yes. The VA. It has been broken for so long. You wonder why no one has noticed. Probably because those in the system have no recourse.
Expand the enrollment beyond veterans to include those in medicare and medicaid. Expand the enrollment to people who wish to buy into the system. This kills many birds with one stone. This may take a while, but could be done reasonably and safely within 8 years and every step is a positive one that all can agree on.
The trouble with that idea is that the system can't be fixed without letting Government contracts and changing laws. Neither process works well. The government is chock full of bad managers whose main incentive is inefficiency which garners bigger budgets and more underlings.
If our government can't fix the VA and turn it into a world class system, how do you suppose that they are going to be able to do it to the MUCH larger regular health care industry?
So true.
I honestly believe that this is a viable option.
The triumph of hope over experience.
I am not going to disagree with your comments. I will state some simple facts.

The federal government is going to implement some kind of "health care reform" in the near future.

Their solution will have both positive and negative aspects, but because of the nature of how the government operates, there will be no way to fix the negatives or accentuate the positives. (cue song)

Everyone will decry it as a failure, either in doing to much or too little.

We will be stuck with it for the forseeable future.

These are the facts. The only one that will raise any debate is the 2nd, when people argue that it will have NOTHING positive. But fixing and expanding the VA as a solution to the "health care crisis" would allow us to change the last three facts as it would be an iterative process designed to change. Would the end result still suck? Probably. Would it suck as much as what the current path WILL produce. Probably not.
What is the difference between ignorance and apathy? I don't know and I don't care.

pfrit
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Post by pfrit »

BTW, my tongue in cheek solution to the cost of health care is to start billing the home countries of aliens recieving health care in the US. If California was reimbursed for the money that the spend on illegal (and legal) alien health care, they would not be bankrupt. If the home countries won't pay, start seizing assets. Like Baja.
What is the difference between ignorance and apathy? I don't know and I don't care.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

pfrit wrote:BTW, my tongue in cheek solution to the cost of health care is to start billing the home countries of aliens recieving health care in the US. If California was reimbursed for the money that the spend on illegal (and legal) alien health care, they would not be bankrupt. If the home countries won't pay, start seizing assets. Like Baja.
I like that idea. But I wouldn't depend on a California Army. A Texas Army however would be a different story.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

ravingdave
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Post by ravingdave »

MSimon wrote:
pfrit wrote:BTW, my tongue in cheek solution to the cost of health care is to start billing the home countries of aliens recieving health care in the US. If California was reimbursed for the money that the spend on illegal (and legal) alien health care, they would not be bankrupt. If the home countries won't pay, start seizing assets. Like Baja.
I like that idea. But I wouldn't depend on a California Army. A Texas Army however would be a different story.


Saw this today. Thought it might be pertinent.


"11. In case of a foreign invasion, we have the TEXISIANSAS National Guard, the TEXISIANSAS Air National Guard, and several military bases. We don’t have an Army, but since everybody down here has at least six rifles and a pile of ammo, we can raise an Army in 24 hours if we need one. If the situation really gets bad, we can always call the Department of Public Safety and ask them to send over the Texas Rangers."


Image


http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber/2009/08/24/9706/


:)


David

ravingdave
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Post by ravingdave »

Is there anyone else out there with the insight to see that the major cause of our health care problems is the notion that "Insurance" should pay our medical bills ?


Do I yet remain the lone voice crying out in the wilderness ?




David

ravingdave
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Post by ravingdave »

Let me offer the words of Ace (Ace of Spades Headquarters blog) as an example of a point i'm trying to make.




Image


"This idea that taxpayers ought to pay for someone's eyeglasses or routine visits to the doctor or utterly-predictable need of antibiotics or flu immunizations is, well, two words; In. Sane.

That's not "insurance." Insurance is a contract by which someone agrees to pay if you suffer a rare expense. That's how real insurance manages to be fairly inexpensive -- the risk insured against may be costly as hell (e.g., your house burns down) doesn't happen very often.

In the US, "insurance" moved away from real insurance to disguised payments in lieu of wages during the Depression and WWII, where the socialist Roosevelt Administration controlled wages. So firms began offering more and more generous "insurance" to evade/break/semi-legally flout these restrictions, which stopped being insurance against a rare risk, and began becoming simply disguised wages as they paid for things which weren't "risks" at all but inevitabilities, such as your needing to pay for eyeglasses and flu shots and routine check-ups and everything else. "



Excellent Essay by Ace.

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/290967.php#290967



David

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