I know i'm gonna regret this, but I just can't help myself.

Discuss life, the universe, and everything with other members of this site. Get to know your fellow polywell enthusiasts.

Moderators: tonybarry, MSimon

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

Betruger wrote:The real problem is that the drug junkie doesn't want, doesn't know better than to dig himself into a hole with no way out.

What needs to be done is for education to improve so that people know better and want to make the right decisions, not for heavier shackles to be put on their free will.
I'm way more radical than that. I claim that drugs are the shovel out of the hole.

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... s-war.html

The deal is: we have legal shovels and illegal shovels. Please explain the rationale of illegal shovels.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

djolds1
Posts: 1296
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:03 am

Post by djolds1 »

Betruger wrote:What needs to be done is for education to improve so that people know better and want to make the right decisions, not for heavier shackles to be put on their free will.
Training up the New Soviet UberMan of Will Triumphant has been tried for the last century, with less than impressive results. If anything, every "new innovation" in education has only harmed the general level of learning.
Vae Victis

Betruger
Posts: 2321
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 11:54 am

Post by Betruger »

I don't know what you mean. Did the soviets know what neuroscience we know today? Tomorrow? Were they accurately informed and left free will or were they herded by narrow uncomprehensive protocol?
What exactly is "new innovation" referring to? Seems like an absolute pigeon hole, irrespective of anything. Note that I did and am saying education in the full sense, not just academics.

MSimon - I don't disagree.. My point is that some people are primed for runaway addiction at the cost of their medical and social health. If someone is self-medicating to make his way out of the hole, he's got a target, a purpose. Someone aimless, or aimless and with genetic dispositions for addictive behavior will make a mess of himself because of those, not because the drugs tell him to do it.

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

Betruger wrote:I don't know what you mean. Did the soviets know what neuroscience we know today? Tomorrow? Were they accurately informed and left free will or were they herded by narrow uncomprehensive protocol?
What exactly is "new innovation" referring to? Seems like an absolute pigeon hole, irrespective of anything. Note that I did and am saying education in the full sense, not just academics.

MSimon - I don't disagree.. My point is that some people are primed for runaway addiction at the cost of their medical and social health. If someone is self-medicating to make his way out of the hole, he's got a target, a purpose. Someone aimless, or aimless and with genetic dispositions for addictive behavior will make a mess of himself because of those, not because the drugs tell him to do it.
Betruger,

You seem to be ignorant of the current state of medical science - at least in America. In America - chronic drug use is considered self medication - at least in medical circles. Now I fail to see how medicating yourself for a condition is a form of self abuse. Especially if a doctor would prescribe a medication that attached to the same receptors as an illegal drug would for the condition in question.

Straight: if you get your anti-depressants from the medical cartel - well you are a fine upstanding citizen. If you get your anti-depressants from the gypsy drugstore you are a potential addict whose soul is in danger from a possible life long addiction to the illegal drug DEMON.

Same dam n receptors.

I don't see any science here. I see total rank superstition.

So let me start out simple:

You have a medical problem that involves unfilled receptors. You can fill the receptors with compound #1 or compound #2.

The government decides to persecute users of compound #1 which can be bought on street corners or you can grow your own, while compound #2 is only available by prescription in drug stores.

Would you smell a rat?

===

The only people primed for runaway "addiction" are people with untreated medical conditions. If the people get enough drugs from a doctor to ameliorate the condition it is called treatment. If the condition is severe to the point of debilitation and they get their medicine from the street we call them worthless junkies.

But there are categories of worthless junkies. Those that got the mental scars from war are accorded more respect than those who got them from an abusive father.

===

Your whole premise only works if drugs cause addiction. If something else causes it, paying attention to drugs is a distraction. Now the people pulling off this distraction are at least as smart as I am and have access to the same open sources. So why do you think they are working to focus your mind on drugs to the exclusion of the rest of the evidence?

===

Because long term "addiction" is genetic in nature only 20% of the population is susceptible. Of the 20% only those who have received a sufficiently strong emotional shock are liable to use drugs. And they should. They have a medical condition. When we can give it a name it is often called PTSD. But that is just one pathway. Another could be schizophrenia. The schizophrenic are notorious tobacco smokers.

Now explain to me why we should be hounding these people? Because Negroes and Jews are no longer acceptable?

Go back and look at the Jane Elliot experiments. It only took a few minutes to get people to hate based on eye color.

http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/27/jan ... on-racism/

And the "hated" conformed to the stereotypes.

When I need to hate I like to focus it on the Andromeda Nebula - a place long ago and far away.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

tombo
Posts: 334
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 1:10 am
Location: Washington USA

Post by tombo »

Please explain the rationale of illegal shovels.
OK - Profit
The dealers and traffickers profit from the black market's high profit margin.
The politicians profit from having a whipping boy to distract people from other issues. And, if you believe they are not saints then by direct and indirect bribery.
The police profit from more funding, manpower, equipment and suspension of civil liberties. (oh, and how many of the police are saints?)
The court system profits likewise.
The doctor's union (AMA) profits from the people who can afford to go to them and pay union scale. Oh and they get more trauma and OD cases to bill for.
The medical insurance industry profits from their take on the higher cash flow through their system.
The media profits from more stories of gore (if it bleeds it leads).
So, on and on the list goes.

Is it any wonder that the cheapest shovels are illegal and that any real debate of the issue is forced to the margins. (Yes, I am afraid that this forum is a margin, if you had not noticed.)

Actually sit down and read Adam Smith sometime. This is not a new pattern.

Betruger
Posts: 2321
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 11:54 am

Post by Betruger »

MSimon - Gotta run right now, but in brief I wasn't disagreeing. Just seeing two separate aspects. Behavioral and medical.

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

Betruger wrote:MSimon - Gotta run right now, but in brief I wasn't disagreeing. Just seeing two separate aspects. Behavioral and medical.
The problem with the behavioral model is that it has cause and effect inverted.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Betruger
Posts: 2321
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 11:54 am

Post by Betruger »

Alright, I completely failed to communicate earlier. Your previous reply counter argued a point I wasn't making. Yes, same receptors; same stuff with a different label. No doubt about it.

How does the behavioral model have cause and effect backwards?

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

Betruger wrote:Alright, I completely failed to communicate earlier. Your previous reply counter argued a point I wasn't making. Yes, same receptors; same stuff with a different label. No doubt about it.

How does the behavioral model have cause and effect backwards?
This could all be a big misunderstanding. As I understand the current behavioral model: drugs cause addiction. i.e. the drugs are irresistible.

What I find irresistible is that people want relief from pain.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

ravingdave
Posts: 650
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:41 am

Post by ravingdave »

MSimon wrote:
Betruger wrote:Alright, I completely failed to communicate earlier. Your previous reply counter argued a point I wasn't making. Yes, same receptors; same stuff with a different label. No doubt about it.

How does the behavioral model have cause and effect backwards?
This could all be a big misunderstanding. As I understand the current behavioral model: drugs cause addiction. i.e. the drugs are irresistible.

What I find irresistible is that people want relief from pain.

A lot of them don't realize they're in pain until they try the "Pain Relief" and lo and behold, they were in pain and NEED their medicine !
(by medicine, I mean a plant toxin which was intended by the plant to kill or disable it's predators)

As another anecdote concerning legalized pot, A friend was just telling me today about another of the travails of his worthless nephew. He said his nephew just got a license to grow Medicinal Marijuana. (He's unemployed and Unemployable. Not because there's anything wrong with him physically, he's just a lazy lousy employee. ) His nephew lives in Denver Colorado, and I mentioned that I didn't know that Colorado was doing that "medicinal marijuana" stuff.

He also tells me that his brother (who also lives in Denver) won't have anything to do with his nephew, and won't allow his kids around him. (Even though his brother tokes a joint now and then. (allegedly) ) :)

Oh well. It's no skin off my nose. Lazy people make for easy competition.


David

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

ravingdave wrote:
MSimon wrote:
Betruger wrote:Alright, I completely failed to communicate earlier. Your previous reply counter argued a point I wasn't making. Yes, same receptors; same stuff with a different label. No doubt about it.

How does the behavioral model have cause and effect backwards?
This could all be a big misunderstanding. As I understand the current behavioral model: drugs cause addiction. i.e. the drugs are irresistible.

What I find irresistible is that people want relief from pain.

A lot of them don't realize they're in pain until they try the "Pain Relief" and lo and behold, they were in pain and NEED their medicine !
(by medicine, I mean a plant toxin which was intended by the plant to kill or disable it's predators)

As another anecdote concerning legalized pot, A friend was just telling me today about another of the travails of his worthless nephew. He said his nephew just got a license to grow Medicinal Marijuana. (He's unemployed and Unemployable. Not because there's anything wrong with him physically, he's just a lazy lousy employee. ) His nephew lives in Denver Colorado, and I mentioned that I didn't know that Colorado was doing that "medicinal marijuana" stuff.

He also tells me that his brother (who also lives in Denver) won't have anything to do with his nephew, and won't allow his kids around him. (Even though his brother tokes a joint now and then. (allegedly) ) :)

Oh well. It's no skin off my nose. Lazy people make for easy competition.

David
But we also know pot smokers who are very competitive. So all we can say is that lazy people are easy competition.

Blaming drugs (or the brother-in-law) is just a cheap cop out.

I think the correlation is more: people in a lot of pain don't perform well. And guess what - if you look at people taking pain relievers you will probably find a very high proportion of them in pain.

And what are some of the symptoms: listless, inability to concentrate, short attention span, etc. i.e. easy competition.

BTW - ever look at some of the early photos of the Microsoft Crew?

Image

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000363.html

Easy competition? Heh. Them Hippies love the taste of blood. Yours.

And that hippie on the lower right? Paul Allen.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2007/06/tri-al ... on-in.html

viewtopic.php?p=20728&sid=b4790fd833ec0 ... 0c493e64fb

(Looks like Google is starting to fully index this site) yea!
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

ravingdave
Posts: 650
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:41 am

Post by ravingdave »

MSimon wrote:
ravingdave wrote:
MSimon wrote: This could all be a big misunderstanding. As I understand the current behavioral model: drugs cause addiction. i.e. the drugs are irresistible.

What I find irresistible is that people want relief from pain.

A lot of them don't realize they're in pain until they try the "Pain Relief" and lo and behold, they were in pain and NEED their medicine !
(by medicine, I mean a plant toxin which was intended by the plant to kill or disable it's predators)

As another anecdote concerning legalized pot, A friend was just telling me today about another of the travails of his worthless nephew. He said his nephew just got a license to grow Medicinal Marijuana. (He's unemployed and Unemployable. Not because there's anything wrong with him physically, he's just a lazy lousy employee. ) His nephew lives in Denver Colorado, and I mentioned that I didn't know that Colorado was doing that "medicinal marijuana" stuff.

He also tells me that his brother (who also lives in Denver) won't have anything to do with his nephew, and won't allow his kids around him. (Even though his brother tokes a joint now and then. (allegedly) ) :)

Oh well. It's no skin off my nose. Lazy people make for easy competition.

David
But we also know pot smokers who are very competitive. So all we can say is that lazy people are easy competition.

Blaming drugs (or the brother-in-law) is just a cheap cop out.

I think the correlation is more: people in a lot of pain don't perform well. And guess what - if you look at people taking pain relievers you will probably find a very high proportion of them in pain.

And what are some of the symptoms: listless, inability to concentrate, short attention span, etc. i.e. easy competition.

BTW - ever look at some of the early photos of the Microsoft Crew?

Image

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000363.html

Easy competition? Heh. Them Hippies love the taste of blood. Yours.

And that hippie on the lower right? Paul Allen.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2007/06/tri-al ... on-in.html

viewtopic.php?p=20728&sid=b4790fd833ec0 ... 0c493e64fb

(Looks like Google is starting to fully index this site) yea!


You are holding up as an example the people of Microsoft ? You might as well put up a picture of the latest lottery winners because as near as I can tell, that's the only talent Microsoft has demonstrated.

Didn't we have a conversation about Microsoft a while back ?

I believe I made the point that Microsoft owes it's existence to Luck, and chutzpah. (and digital research, who did the ACTUAL work on dos.)

Yeah, they're great thinkers alright. :)



David


(p.s. your point would be better made with photos of Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak. Though I own no Apple products, I do credit them with original and quality thinking. )

m14
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:02 pm

Post by m14 »

The war on drugs does back to Vietnam and operation yellow stream. Drinking and the military is bad enough legalized drugs would take it over the top. Moreover, I would likely have a few bullets holes in me. You cannot control the men when they go off base. Making drug social expectable would be a very bad idea.

Your self-medication nonsense really takes the cake. As my sergeant would say, "you sound like a hairy hippy".

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

m14 wrote:The war on drugs does back to Vietnam and operation yellow stream. Drinking and the military is bad enough legalized drugs would take it over the top. Moreover, I would likely have a few bullets holes in me. You cannot control the men when they go off base. Making drug social expectable would be a very bad idea.

Your self-medication nonsense really takes the cake. As my sergeant would say, "you sound like a hairy hippy".
You should visit a hospital and ask them. Evidentially your medical education is not current. Pity.

It always amazes me that strong opinion trumps knowledge. We do get the government we deserve. Another pity.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

djolds1
Posts: 1296
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:03 am

Post by djolds1 »

MSimon wrote:It always amazes me that strong opinion trumps knowledge. We do get the government we deserve. Another pity.
???

The human animal is not rational Simon, it is rationalizing. The passions rule us far more than the pipsqueak weakling called "rationality." Uber-rational NTs of the type that populate this board tend to forget that, but we are only 10% of the human species.

Duane
Vae Victis

Post Reply