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ravingdave
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Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:41 am

Post by ravingdave »

joedead wrote:
Perhaps this is unfair to characterize these events as the result of Athiesm, as it can be argued that the bigger component is the fact that they were left wing socialists. Possibly, but it seems to me that as socialists/communists are vehemenently athiestic, athiesm itself must be a component of their doctrine, and therefore must bear some responsibility.
Excellent. Was waiting for you to finish this. I'll rip into this later this weekend.

Communists and Left Wing Socialist contained some athiest ideas, and they killed alot of people, therefore all athiests are morally bankrupt? Not great logic, but I'll devote more words to your fuzzy logic later.

Non Sequitur. I didn't allege that ALL athiests are morally bankrupt. I believe my point was that when they are a majority, the collective is morally bankrupt. (if by "Morally Bankrupt" you mean willing to kill a whole lot of people.)

I have little doubt that there are MANY very moral Athiests, but I believe this is because of the inadvertent influece of the dominant social mindset, which has been (except in the cases of the Soviet Union etc. ) theistic in nature.

This is of course, my opinion, and it is based on what I have learned about History and Human nature. At the moment, I cannot conceive of it being otherwise, which is why I would find a reasonable argument to the contrary to be fascinating.


David

IntLibber
Posts: 747
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:28 pm

Post by IntLibber »

ravingdave wrote:
joedead wrote:
Perhaps this is unfair to characterize these events as the result of Athiesm, as it can be argued that the bigger component is the fact that they were left wing socialists. Possibly, but it seems to me that as socialists/communists are vehemenently athiestic, athiesm itself must be a component of their doctrine, and therefore must bear some responsibility.
Excellent. Was waiting for you to finish this. I'll rip into this later this weekend.

Communists and Left Wing Socialist contained some athiest ideas, and they killed alot of people, therefore all athiests are morally bankrupt? Not great logic, but I'll devote more words to your fuzzy logic later.

Non Sequitur. I didn't allege that ALL athiests are morally bankrupt. I believe my point was that when they are a majority, the collective is morally bankrupt. (if by "Morally Bankrupt" you mean willing to kill a whole lot of people.)

I have little doubt that there are MANY very moral Athiests, but I believe this is because of the inadvertent influece of the dominant social mindset, which has been (except in the cases of the Soviet Union etc. ) theistic in nature.

This is of course, my opinion, and it is based on what I have learned about History and Human nature. At the moment, I cannot conceive of it being otherwise, which is why I would find a reasonable argument to the contrary to be fascinating.


David
Totalitarians of any stripe tend to be themselves atheistic. If the local religious establishment is conservative then a right wing tyrant will use the mechanisms of the church to support his tyranny, if its nationalist, it will do the same (aka USSR and the Russian Orthodox Church). The socialist movement in the US in the 19th century was very decidedly a protestant thing, not an atheist thing, particularly the national socialism promoted by the Bellamy clan. Atheist socialists tend to be non-practicing jews.

Note that the communist party in Russia prior to the revolution was generally known as "The Jewish Party" due to the heavy ethnic leanings, one reason Hitler focused on jewishness rather than communism was the Wiemar government itself was a result of the socialist led revolution against the Kaiser at the end of WWI.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

What is even stranger is that some Jews are among the greatest proponents of free market capitalism. Milton Friedman was a libertarian.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

ravingdave
Posts: 650
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:41 am

Post by ravingdave »

IntLibber wrote:

Totalitarians of any stripe tend to be themselves atheistic. If the local religious establishment is conservative then a right wing tyrant will use the mechanisms of the church to support his tyranny, if its nationalist, it will do the same (aka USSR and the Russian Orthodox Church). The socialist movement in the US in the 19th century was very decidedly a protestant thing, not an atheist thing, particularly the national socialism promoted by the Bellamy clan. Atheist socialists tend to be non-practicing jews.

Note that the communist party in Russia prior to the revolution was generally known as "The Jewish Party" due to the heavy ethnic leanings, one reason Hitler focused on jewishness rather than communism was the Wiemar government itself was a result of the socialist led revolution against the Kaiser at the end of WWI.

Totalitarians of any stripe tend to be themselves atheistic.


Ah, but which comes first ? The Chicken (Totalitarianism) or the Egg ? (Athiesm)



David

joedead
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Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:31 pm
Location: Manhattan, NY

Post by joedead »

I have little doubt that there are MANY very moral Athiests, but I believe this is because of the inadvertent influece of the dominant social mindset, which has been (except in the cases of the Soviet Union etc. ) theistic in nature.

This is of course, my opinion, and it is based on what I have learned about History and Human nature. At the moment, I cannot conceive of it being otherwise, which is why I would find a reasonable argument to the contrary to be fascinating.
Quick question for Dave: Does this mean you believe the majority of the current world is better off for being theistic? That is, the world is a better place because of belief in god and therefore better off because of religion?

hanelyp
Posts: 2255
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:50 pm

Post by hanelyp »

ravingdave wrote:Ah, but which comes first ? The Chicken (Totalitarianism) or the Egg ? (Athiesm)
David
Not much room for seeing yourself as God if you believe in a higher Power. But that doesn't exclude seeing yourself as His Prophet.

And if you believe God is willing you to commit what civilized folks consider crimes against humanity...

IntLibber
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Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:28 pm

Post by IntLibber »

MSimon wrote:What is even stranger is that some Jews are among the greatest proponents of free market capitalism. Milton Friedman was a libertarian.
Quite so, and his son and grandson are anarchocapitalists (friends of mine).

IntLibber
Posts: 747
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:28 pm

Post by IntLibber »

hanelyp wrote:
ravingdave wrote:Ah, but which comes first ? The Chicken (Totalitarianism) or the Egg ? (Athiesm)
David
Not much room for seeing yourself as God if you believe in a higher Power. But that doesn't exclude seeing yourself as His Prophet.

And if you believe God is willing you to commit what civilized folks consider crimes against humanity...
God was invented, ergo anybody who invents a god is themselves a god.... lol thus atheists who claim god was invented by man are disproving their own argument.

Betruger
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Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 11:54 am

Post by Betruger »

That makes no sense. "Invented" in this context means they came up with the idea. It's just an idea. Entertaining and/or believing in the possibility of the supernatural doesn't "make" you supernatural, nor did you really invent that hypothetical supernatural.

ravingdave
Posts: 650
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:41 am

Post by ravingdave »

joedead wrote:
I have little doubt that there are MANY very moral Athiests, but I believe this is because of the inadvertent influece of the dominant social mindset, which has been (except in the cases of the Soviet Union etc. ) theistic in nature.

This is of course, my opinion, and it is based on what I have learned about History and Human nature. At the moment, I cannot conceive of it being otherwise, which is why I would find a reasonable argument to the contrary to be fascinating.
Quick question for Dave: Does this mean you believe the majority of the current world is better off for being theistic? That is, the world is a better place because of belief in god and therefore better off because of religion?

Yes.

David

ravingdave
Posts: 650
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:41 am

Post by ravingdave »

hanelyp wrote:
ravingdave wrote:Ah, but which comes first ? The Chicken (Totalitarianism) or the Egg ? (Athiesm)
David
Not much room for seeing yourself as God if you believe in a higher Power. But that doesn't exclude seeing yourself as His Prophet.

And if you believe God is willing you to commit what civilized folks consider crimes against humanity...
This is true, and many attrocities have been committed in the name of a God that says "Thou shalt not kill. "

This is obviously a case of people going against what they profess is their religion. However, the body count is not as bad as what the Athiests have done.

I guess the worst example of Religious people killing other human beings is the Spanish Inquisition.
Spanish Inquisition (1478-1834)
Cited in Will Durant, The Reformation (1957):
Juan Antonio Llorente, General Secretary of the Inquisition from 1789 to 1801, estimated that 31,912 were executed, 1480-1808.
In contrast to the high estimate cited above, Durant tosses his support to the following low estimates:
Hernando de Pulgar, secretary to Queen Isabella, estimated 2,000 burned before 1490.
An unnamed "Catholic historian" estimated 2,000 burned, 1480-1504, and 2,000 burned, 1504-1758.
PGtH: 8,800 deaths by burning, 1478-1496
Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church (1910): 8,800 burnt in 18 years of Torquemada. (acc2 Buckle and Friedländer)
Motley, Rise of the Dutch Republic: 10,220 burnt in 18 years of Torquemada
Britannica: 2,000
Aletheia, The Rationalist's Manual: 35,534 burned.
Fox's Book of Martyrs, Ch.IV: 32,000 burned
Paul Johnson A History of the Jews (1987): 32,000 k. by burning; 20,226 k. before 1540
Wertham: 250,000
Rummel: 350,000 deaths overall.
MEDIAN: 8,800 under Torq.; 32,000 all told.
Punished by all means, not death.
Fox: 309,000
P. Johnson: 341,000
Motley: 114,401

The largest number I see is 350,000 over a period of 400 years.

Mao Zedong and Joseph Stalin Killed 60 Million in just a few years.


David

joedead
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Location: Manhattan, NY

Post by joedead »

Quick question for Dave: Does this mean you believe the majority of the current world is better off for being theistic? That is, the world is a better place because of belief in god and therefore better off because of religion?



Yes.

David
Danke. I'll return later with my full argument. Basically, I'm gonna argue religion has done more harm than good, and some of the atheists you chose as example aren't truly atheists.

Btw Dave, what time zone do you live in?

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Don't leave out the atheists of the religion of peace. One of the leaders of that religion killed 100,000 Hindus every year for a number of decades. And that was just one place and it did not count the "normal" kills.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

ravingdave
Posts: 650
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:41 am

Post by ravingdave »

joedead wrote:
Quick question for Dave: Does this mean you believe the majority of the current world is better off for being theistic? That is, the world is a better place because of belief in god and therefore better off because of religion?



Yes.

David
Danke. I'll return later with my full argument. Basically, I'm gonna argue religion has done more harm than good, and some of the atheists you chose as example aren't truly atheists.

Btw Dave, what time zone do you live in?
Central, and I look forward to it.

David

ravingdave
Posts: 650
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:41 am

Post by ravingdave »

MSimon wrote:Don't leave out the atheists of the religion of peace. One of the leaders of that religion killed 100,000 Hindus every year for a number of decades. And that was just one place and it did not count the "normal" kills.

Yeah, there are some religions that can be downright deadly. Both to their practitioners and others. (Jim Jones, Heaven't Gate, Branch Davidians, etc.) Of course none of these reaches the scale of the one you're refering to. It's pretty deadly when even the pious can be killed for not being as pious as someone else thinks they should be. Of course, European History went through that same sort of thing about 500 years ago. Who knows ? In 500 years maybe the religion of peace might actually be peaceful.


David

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