Media "Control" of the Elections?

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IntLibber
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Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:28 pm

Post by IntLibber »

TDPerk wrote:
Actually, Dr. Robin Hanson's work has proven that other than immunization and principles of sepsis and public sanitation, no other health care technology has done anything to extend the average life expectancy.
That is so immediately and obviously wrong, it is not even laughable. People, a very great many people, now survive and continue to lead happy productive lives when they have suffered trauma and disease which would have killed them quickly in previous centuries; Hanson's is simply not a remotely credible hypothesis.
http://hanson.gmu.edu/showcare.pdf

"The most definitive data on this topic comes from the RAND Health Insurance Experiment,
which for three to five years in the mid 1970s randomly assigned two thousand
non-elderly US families to either free health care or to plans with a substantial copayment.
Those with free care consumed on average about 25-30% more health care, as measured by
spending. They went to the doctor and hospital more often, and as a result suffered one
more restricted activity day per year, when they could not do their normal activities. The
extra hospital visits were rated by physican reviewers to be just as medically appropriate,
and to treat just as severe a stage of disease, as the other hospital visits.
Those with free care obtained more eyeglasses, and had more teeth filled. Beyond this,
however, there was no significant difference in a general health index, which was the designed
outcome measure. There was also no significant difference in physical functioning, physiologic
measures, health practices, satisfaction, or the appropriateness of therapy. Blood pressure
may have been reduced, but the point estimate was that this produced a 1% reduction in
average future mortality rates, which translates to roughly seven weeks of life [13, 65, 76].
And this estimate was not significantly different from no effect."

"For example, large medicallyunexplained
variations in Medicare spending across hospital regions [100, 101] were recently
used to estimate the regional mortality benefit from spending $1000 more in the last six
months of life. The benefit is bounded (at the 95% c.l.) to be less than 0.1% in general, and
less than 1% for a subpopulation with certain specific conditions (such as heart attack) [89]."

"The above studies are mostly about the marginal value of the last one third of spending.
What about the average value of the first two thirds of spending? Both life expectancy and
medical spending have increased in the last four decades, and a recent analysis [28] calculates
that this extra spending was worth it if at least 30% of the increase in US lifespan was due
to the increase in US spending (assuming a $100,000 life-year value) . It is far from clear,
however, that medicine can claim this much credit. An optimistic accounting of the benefits
of specific treatments attributes only five years of the forty or more years of added lifespan
over the last two centuries to medicine [17]."

http://www.cato-unbound.org/2007/09/10/ ... e-in-half/

"And even if this overall risk-index effect were real, it would represent about fifty days of life gained for the average patient, paid for by roughly 30% more medical spending over a lifetime."

Hanson has reviewed many other studies which essentially show that health has a very weak link to medicine, and a far stronger link to other factors such as: exercise, diet, sleep, smoking, pollution, climate, and social status

TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

IntLIbber,

Sure, but what's the marginal value of your life extending your life? Rationally speaking, surviving the next minute is worth everything you have (since, if you don't, you won't have anything). That's why society commits huge resources towards health care.

I certainly won't argue that much health care is unnecessary, even counterproductive. Doctors want to sell you procedures and drugs; you need to do your own due diligence. Still, when you have an infection you don't turn down antibiotics because their aggregate effect is small.

IntLibber
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Post by IntLibber »

TallDave wrote:IntLIbber,

Sure, but what's the marginal value of your life extending your life? Rationally speaking, surviving the next minute is worth everything you have (since, if you don't, you won't have anything). That's why society commits huge resources towards health care.

I certainly won't argue that much health care is unnecessary, even counterproductive. Doctors want to sell you procedures and drugs; you need to do your own due diligence. Still, when you have an infection you don't turn down antibiotics because their aggregate effect is small.
The point is that health care, in general, doesn't deliver. According to the studies, patients would accept the cost of health care as it is provided if it accounted for at least 30% of the extension in life expectancy that we enjoy in the modern age. It underdelivers by a huge margin, accounting for, at best, MAYBE 12% under the most optimistic studies, and most of that is due to simple things like public hygeine, innoculations/antibiotics, etc. as previously stated.

Overall, and particularly with government or corporate provided plans, health care is really just a game theory chip by which elites do a high tech form of baboon grooming to build tribal morale and support.

IntLibber
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Post by IntLibber »

Here's an additional argument: As a veteran, I have some measure of VA health benefits, however they are limited as I am not a career retiree. For most of my adult life, I have not had health insurance. I am now 42 years old.

I am generally healthy, though a bit overweight. I don't smoke, drink, do drugs.

Now, COBRA basically represents the full cost of a corporate style health plan, and typically costs in excess of $500 USD a month for a single person. Times 20 years, this represents about $120,000 USD in additional income I would have had to work for in order to pay for health insurance which I have not needed during this time.

Now, given all this extra work I would have had to do, and given risk factors for driving a car for work commuting, as well as workplace safety risks, how much do you want to bet that all these increased risks (including increased stress from having to work more) would in dollar value exceed the amount of money I have not had to earn to buy said health insurance?

Now, lets look at the opportunity costs. Lets assume that I did work those extra hours to earn that money, and rather than buying health insurance, I invested it in various securities, lets say municipal bonds at 8%, $500 per month for 20 years. That amount would compound to $296,973.00 USD. That amount of money would pay for two kidney transplants, a liver transplant, extreme body makeover (lipo, lazik, hair, etc etc), or one heart transplant.

The average estimated lifetime health care expenditure is only $316,000 USD. If I work this extra amount for another 25 years to retirement, saving 500 USD a month rather than spending it on health insurance (or having my employer do so on my behalf), I will wind up at age 65 with $2.655 million USD, nine times more than the average lifetime health care expenditure. Given that 90% of lifetime health care costs occur in the last 5 years of life anyways, the numbers say that its far more cost effective for you to forego health insurance, take it all as income, and sock that money away yourself and when you need health care, pay cash.

Health insurance really is not for your benefit, it is a transfer of your retirement savings into the pockets of insurance executives and/or government bureaucrats.

TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

According to the studies, patients would accept the cost of health care as it is provided if it accounted for at least 30% of the extension in life expectancy that we enjoy in the modern age.
They would accept it? Huh? Which treatments do they think they would refuse? I'm not sure a survey provides a sensible answer to the question. Health care has nearly infinite demand, as I pointed out before.

It doesn't matter if the aggregate effect for something is small. Yes, sewage and potable water services are far more cost-effective at extending average lifespan than a triple bypass operation for a 60-year-old, but if you want to extend your life another few years it may be worth it to you.

Diminishing returns is a result of our historically incredible and unprecedented wealth -- we experience vastly diminished returns on our marginal spending because we spend so much. That's one of the things you hear a lot in African aid circles-- the first dollar of health care is more effective than the next 9 together.
Times 20 years, this represents about $120,000 USD in additional income I would have had to work for in order to pay for health insurance which I have not needed during this time.
Well, that's what insurance is. You hope you don't ever need it. You're paying for it against as a hedge against the eventuality you might. This is like complaining your car has all these useless airbags that never went off the whole time you owned it, and seatbelts that never prevented you from being injured.
. Given that 90% of lifetime health care costs occur in the last 5 years of life anyways, the numbers say that its far more cost effective for you to forego health insurance, take it all as income, and sock that money away yourself and when you need health care, pay cash.
I agree 100%, and in fact that's what I do when I'm not working W-2. I also hedge my bets with exercise, good diet, vitamins and supplements and a low-risk lifestyle.
Health insurance really is not for your benefit, it is a transfer of your retirement savings into the pockets of insurance executives and/or government bureaucrats.
Actually, that money mostly goes to doctors and medical product company shareholders. That's why doctors are so grossly overpaid -- the insurance system is set up to insulate both patients and doctors from cost decisions. It's premium medicine, and as with most premium services much of it is wasted (for instance, an MRI for a chronic back ache, when the chances of it finding something are very small and not justified on cost).

BSPhysics
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:17 am

Post by BSPhysics »

Here's Glenn Beck again. A fine example of the media's double standard on how they treat Republicans vs. Democrats.

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.h ... glennbeck/

BS

OrionCA
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:17 am

Post by OrionCA »

scareduck wrote:1) If Obama's election were merely media bias, why didn't the Democrats think of that back in 2004?
They did. Unfortunately for them, they went with John "Doofus" Kerry.
2) John McCain and the GOP selected someone as a VP candidate who was and is a complete ignoramus. She didn't know about the Bush Doctrine,
Actually, she did. She just asked which doctrine the reporter was asking about and he reported it as "she didn't know what the Bush Doctrine was."

The Democrats nominated Joe "He's a clean, articulate, black man." Biden for VP. They have nothing to complain about.
3) For those paying attention, John McCain's painful reversal on torture was unbearable; as someone who spent year in the Hanoi Hilton, he should have known, better than anyone, that it's just not permissible. And yet he made it possible for the Military Commissions Act (which enshrined into law the use of torture by allowing the President to define it away) to get through Congress.
You DO know that Obama has endorsed all the Bush interrogation techniques (ie., "Torture") he inherited, don't you?

The bottomline is that if Bush had had a (D) after his name instead of an (R) the media would have laid off him. A press corps that nationally votes 70% for Democrats can only pretend to be non-partisan in its reporting. Inthe old days we had 2-3 newspapers per major population area and they wouldn't pretend to be "non-partisan" - some would be left of center, some would be right. The leftists won by din of being too stupid to bail out when the subscriber base began evaporating, so the press is largely left of center today and pushes its leftwing agenda, giving only lip service to "fairness" at best. Frankly they'd be better off if they dumped the whole, "fair coverage" canard and declared themselves socialist rags. They might pick up readers.

IntLibber
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Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:28 pm

Post by IntLibber »

in fact, not only has Obama not reduced the number of CIA drone missile strikes in Pakistan, he's ordered them to be escalated.

How is THAT for "a new relationship with the world" and "not going it alone" and "the end of unilateralism" and "working with our allies" and "regaining the worlds trust"???

seedload
Posts: 1062
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:16 pm

Post by seedload »

IntLibber wrote:How is THAT for "a new relationship with the world" and "not going it alone" and "the end of unilateralism" and "working with our allies" and "regaining the worlds trust"???
He has a plan for regaining the worlds trust. He is going to give them all a very nice CD collection.

IntLibber
Posts: 747
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:28 pm

Post by IntLibber »

seedload wrote:
IntLibber wrote:How is THAT for "a new relationship with the world" and "not going it alone" and "the end of unilateralism" and "working with our allies" and "regaining the worlds trust"???
He has a plan for regaining the worlds trust. He is going to give them all a very nice CD collection.
And some nice earmarks too.

TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

He is going to give them all a very nice CD collection.
Did you hear today, Gordon Brown tried to play the DVDs Barack gave him but they weren't the Euro format so they didn't work.

A tacky gift (while we get furniture made from a famous British naval vessel) and it doesn't even work. Sheesh. This after they can't even spell "RESET" in Russian. And they said Bush was incompetent.

ravingdave
Posts: 650
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:41 am

Post by ravingdave »

• Warren Bass: Former deputy editor of The Post's Sunday Outlook now serves as an adviser and speechwriter for U.N. Ambassador Susan Rice.

• Jay Carney: The former TIME Magazine Moscow bureau chief and campaign chronicler (and husband of ABC's Claire Shipman) now serves as communications director for Vice President Biden.

• Linda Douglass: Former Congressional correspondent for CBS and ABC and writer/editor at National Journal left journalism last year to serve as traveling press secretary for the Obama campaign. She'll help guide the administration's communications efforts during this summer's battle over health care reform, working out of the Department of Health and Human Services and the White House.

• Peter Gosselin: The former Los Angeles Times reporter now writes speeches for Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner.

• David Hoff: The Education Week reporter and blogger started yesterday on the communications staff at the Education Department.

• Beverley Lumpkin: A former Justice Department reporter/producer for ABC and CBS, she left journalism, worked for the Project on Government Oversight and joined DOJ last month as press secretary, turning sources into colleagues.

• Geoff Morrell: A holdover from the Bush administration, the former ABC newsman became spokesman for Defense Secretary Robert Gates in 2007.

• Rick Weiss: Former Washington Post science reporter left for the Center for American Progress and now serves as communications director and senior policy strategist for the White House Office of Science and Technology.

• Jill Zuckman: The former Washington correspondent for the Chicago Tribune works with Ray LaHood as communications director at the Department of Transportation.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/federa ... s-col-blog


David

IntLibber
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GE is behind it all

Post by IntLibber »

General Electric, owner of NBC, MSNBC, CNBC, Universal Pictures, and Universal music, is the big tail wagging Obama's dog. GE campaign contributions to Obama were huge. NBC got their business partner Oprah to back him. They got their musician, will.i.am at Universal to back him and do music for him. They've been using their tv networks to hype the global warming message and obamas campaign.

WHY?

Because:
a) GE has a new line of "low carbon" appliances they want the government to subsidize everybody buying
b) GE came out with a new "carbon" credit card
c) GE is the major financier for the carbon credit trading market that Al Gore has been hyping (and Gore has stock in and stands to make a bundle off of if Obama gets it passed through congress to mandate it).
d) GE is building all the generators, transformers, and other grid equipment for T Boone Pickens' windfarm projects in the midwest.

Conclusion: GE stands to make hundreds of billions of dollars in profits from getting Obama elected, and used all their media power to make it happen.

Helius
Posts: 465
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Location: Syracuse, New York

Re: GE is behind it all

Post by Helius »

IntLibber wrote:General Electric, owner of NBC, MSNBC, CNBC, Universal Pictures, and Universal music, is the big tail wagging Obama's dog. GE campaign contributions to Obama were huge. NBC got their business partner Oprah to back him. They got their musician, will.i.am at Universal to back him and do music for him. They've been using their tv networks to hype the global warming message and obamas campaign.

WHY?

Because:
a) GE has a new line of "low carbon" appliances they want the government to subsidize everybody buying
b) GE came out with a new "carbon" credit card
c) GE is the major financier for the carbon credit trading market that Al Gore has been hyping (and Gore has stock in and stands to make a bundle off of if Obama gets it passed through congress to mandate it).
d) GE is building all the generators, transformers, and other grid equipment for T Boone Pickens' windfarm projects in the midwest.

Conclusion: GE stands to make hundreds of billions of dollars in profits from getting Obama elected, and used all their media power to make it happen.
I'm a little relieved. I thought the whole push toward the "new grid" and bursty intermittent power was being pushed by the minimalists, whom wanted to stop the green revolution and reduce world population to "manageable" levels. I don't care how much GE makes.

One _good_ thing about Obama's relationship to GE is the killing of the Yucca Mountain Repository scheme; It sets the stage for GE's brand spankin' new IFR who's time has come....
http://local.ans.org/virginia/meetings/ ... .PRISM.pdf
I don't think the ABR Prisim is a "coal killer", but it sets the stage. While it is not the totally disruptive technology we're all hoping for, all this work of Grid redesign, most of which is totally misguided, will set the stage for new nuclear energy implementations, some of which, I'm convinced, _will_ be disruptive to our current and future energy schemes.

MSimon
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Re: GE is behind it all

Post by MSimon »

Helius wrote:
IntLibber wrote:General Electric, owner of NBC, MSNBC, CNBC, Universal Pictures, and Universal music, is the big tail wagging Obama's dog. GE campaign contributions to Obama were huge. NBC got their business partner Oprah to back him. They got their musician, will.i.am at Universal to back him and do music for him. They've been using their tv networks to hype the global warming message and obamas campaign.

WHY?

Because:
a) GE has a new line of "low carbon" appliances they want the government to subsidize everybody buying
b) GE came out with a new "carbon" credit card
c) GE is the major financier for the carbon credit trading market that Al Gore has been hyping (and Gore has stock in and stands to make a bundle off of if Obama gets it passed through congress to mandate it).
d) GE is building all the generators, transformers, and other grid equipment for T Boone Pickens' windfarm projects in the midwest.

Conclusion: GE stands to make hundreds of billions of dollars in profits from getting Obama elected, and used all their media power to make it happen.
I'm a little relieved. I thought the whole push toward the "new grid" and bursty intermittent power was being pushed by the minimalists, whom wanted to stop the green revolution and reduce world population to "manageable" levels. I don't care how much GE makes.

One _good_ thing about Obama's relationship to GE is the killing of the Yucca Mountain Repository scheme; It sets the stage for GE's brand spankin' new IFR who's time has come....
http://local.ans.org/virginia/meetings/ ... .PRISM.pdf
I don't think the ABR Prisim is a "coal killer", but it sets the stage. While it is not the totally disruptive technology we're all hoping for, all this work of Grid redesign, most of which is totally misguided, will set the stage for new nuclear energy implementations, some of which, I'm convinced, _will_ be disruptive to our current and future energy schemes.
It is not whether these technologies are a good idea or not. It is the corruption. Or if you prefer the more gentle term: rent seeking.

Suppose there are a few bad ideas in the lot. How can we give them easily up if there are laws mandating them?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

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