Where is Bill Gates when you need him ?

Discuss life, the universe, and everything with other members of this site. Get to know your fellow polywell enthusiasts.

Moderators: tonybarry, MSimon

MSimon
Posts: 14331
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

But jb,

How can a King be outside nature? In fact Kings are traditional.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

jabowery
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:52 am

Post by jabowery »

alexjrgreen wrote:
jabowery wrote:Henry VII levied a tax on the retainers of his baronage and produced the national wealth that carried his wasteful progeny for generations. He also earned the hatred of the baronage as much as the loyalty of his growing yeoman class. His primary failure was inadequate rearing of his son, Henry.
Henry VIII had the best education available. He was a skilled musician and an author.
Which may have been adequate for a vocation as a musician or a writer. But clearly he lacked his father's kingly virtues. (Not that I'm a fan of monarchy, but if I had to choose a monarch, I would tend toward Henry VII.)
Last edited by jabowery on Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jabowery
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:52 am

Post by jabowery »

MSimon wrote:How can a King be outside nature? In fact Kings are traditional.
A king is a head of state. A state is a political association (aka, Lockean "social contract") with effective sovereignty over a geographic area and representing a population, that "(successfully) claims a monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force within a given territory".

We have within our own history in the US, records of times where there was no state in some territories now under state control.

States tend to arise in conjunction with the transition from hunting to agriculture. They are more or less post-paleolithic.

alexjrgreen
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:03 pm
Location: UK

Post by alexjrgreen »

jabowery wrote:
alexjrgreen wrote: Henry VIII had the best education available. He was a skilled musician and an author.
Which may have been adequate for a vocation as a musician or a writer. But clearly he lacked his father's kingly virtues.
The Spanish treasury funded Henry Tudor's successful bid for the throne, making him little more than a puppet (they still have the receipts). Which part of kingly virtues would that be?
Ars artis est celare artem.

alexjrgreen
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:03 pm
Location: UK

Post by alexjrgreen »

MSimon wrote:How can a King be outside nature? In fact Kings are traditional.
The twelve tribes didn't always have one...
Ars artis est celare artem.

jabowery
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:52 am

Post by jabowery »

alexjrgreen wrote:The Spanish treasury funded Henry Tudor's successful bid for the throne, making him little more than a puppet (they still have the receipts).
I suppose George Washington was little more than a puppet of the French then.

alexjrgreen
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:03 pm
Location: UK

Post by alexjrgreen »

jabowery wrote:
alexjrgreen wrote:The Spanish treasury funded Henry Tudor's successful bid for the throne, making him little more than a puppet (they still have the receipts).
I suppose George Washington was little more than a puppet of the French then.
Not a wonderful comparison. Most of the money from France was a loan negotiated by Thomas Paine and Benjamin Franklin. If the British had won, the French sugar plantations would have lost a good customer.

Henry VII, in contrast, was compelled to sign the grossly unequal treaty of Medina del Campo (1489). The potential financial consequence of the military obligations it saddled him with drove his subsequent pursuit of tax revenues.
Ars artis est celare artem.

MSimon
Posts: 14331
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

alexjrgreen wrote:
MSimon wrote:How can a King be outside nature? In fact Kings are traditional.
The twelve tribes didn't always have one...
Under stress that is what they wanted. I think Saul had a word about it: a King will not make you happy. Yet people want kings.

I think our system of an elected King constrained by legislators is not too bad. But what happens? A few hundred years of elected government and monarchy returns.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

jabowery
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:52 am

Post by jabowery »

alexjrgreen wrote:The potential financial consequence of the military obligations it saddled him with drove his subsequent pursuit of tax revenues.
You are referring, of course, to the original reason I brought up Henry VII as an exemplar:

His indirect taxation of net assets resulting from his directly taxing retainers of the baronage.

I find it quite predictable that his economy did well after engaging in so-called "theft" from "the alpha males".

MSimon
Posts: 14331
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

jabowery wrote:
alexjrgreen wrote:The potential financial consequence of the military obligations it saddled him with drove his subsequent pursuit of tax revenues.
You are referring, of course, to the original reason I brought up Henry VII as an exemplar:

His indirect taxation of net assets resulting from his directly taxing retainers of the baronage.

I find it quite predictable that his economy did well after engaging in so-called "theft" from "the alpha males".
What is to prevent the King from winding up with all the property in a sufficiently long down turn where profits are below tax rates? Or in the case you suggest the government winds up owning everything.

The answer to that of course is the alpha's get together and start a war to prevent the loss of their inheritance. New King new tax rates.

One must always consider the unintended consequences of unforeseen events.

Jefferson put it rather well:
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
Because wars are bad for business. Generally.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

ravingdave
Posts: 650
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:41 am

Post by ravingdave »

MSimon wrote:I don't know Dave. Bill fixed the multiple operating system problem when chaos reigned in the market. A whole lot of things got standardized - like disk formats.

And you know - middle men have always been hated because people think they add no value. Thus the universal hatred of Jews. Or the West Asian Chinese. Yet take them out of a market and it stagnates. Or at the very least operates less efficiently.

Two blades of grass for one: very good. However, it does no general good until some one makes a deal.

Bill could make deals. Something I was never too good at. Thus he is rich and I blog commando for pennies. And you know what? He earned every nickel.

But I'm kind of strange for a human. Envy doesn't interest me. At all.
I think you give him far too much credit. My recollection was that the computer industry was playing a game of "Musical chairs." When IBM released the PC, the music stopped, and Microsoft ended up occupying the chair.



David

ravingdave
Posts: 650
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:41 am

Post by ravingdave »

MSimon wrote:
But it IS an affront to discover that other people are automatically better than you because they are born into the life of Privilage.
Envy is alway the precursor to the end of property. Checking envy is a requirement of civilization.

======

If you consider that the historical basis of all property is murder or theft then you are left with the world of Hobbs. At some point you have to declare the past past if you want civilization.

======

When I see such attitudes in what I consider thoughtful people I have to conclude that civilization can't last too much longer. It was nice while it lasted.

The man with a gun is about to reign supreme. And he will own what he can hold.

I am thinking perhaps that envy is not the correct word. As an animal lost in a flood will seek anything to climb upon to get out of the water, the idea is more akin to finding a roomy raft occupied by others and denied to you or me because "They" claim ownership. Envy would not be the emotion I would be feeling.

Obviously inherited wealthy is not a raft, and destitution is not a flood, but the closer these things become to being a raft in a flood, the closer will the participants be to acting as if they were.

David

ravingdave
Posts: 650
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:41 am

Post by ravingdave »

TDPerk wrote: Gates did not, persecutions successful and not notwithstanding, do one criminal thing in acquiring his wealth, or one immoral thing. Witness ravingdave being unable to mention one concept MS copied from Apple which Apple itself originated.?
Now wait a second... That allegation takes just as much faith as the converse ! Also, individual X not being able to prove something does not mean that it cannot be proven.

Apart from that, I regard the allegations (that Bill Gates aquired his wealth through weasely tricks as opposed to technical prowess.) as if not proven, demonstrated to be highly likely. I see this very sentiment echoed by people in the Computer/Programing buisness.

I should be interested in hearing how you regard it NOT to be the case. Using YOUR aforementioned standard, Prove to me how Bill Gates DIDN'T use Apple's algorithyms etc.




David


p.s. Oh, while i'm thinking about it, the Messaging system for daughter windows is an example of what I think Microsoft Copied from Apple.

jabowery
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:52 am

Post by jabowery »

MSimon wrote:What is to prevent the King from winding up with all the property in a sufficiently long down turn where profits are below tax rates? Or in the case you suggest the government winds up owning everything.
Doesn't happen in my proposal for the simple reason that a downturn results in lowered in place liquidation values and lower short term Treasury rates -- the two factors that determine the economic rent collected by the government for its expenses and citizen's dividends.

Remember, another name for the current downturn is the "liquidity crisis". If the books had all been kept by law in accordance with net liquidation value of all those derivatives, this "asset" bubble would never have blown up in the first place. Their net in place liquidation value would have been well known because it formed the tax base -- not capital gains or income or any of the rest of the nonsensical bases for taxation currently used.

MSimon
Posts: 14331
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

Prove to me how Bill Gates DIDN'T use Apple's algorithyms etc.
The fact that Apple didn't sue is some evidence that it didn't happen.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Post Reply