A Green Wants to Reduce the Numbr of Humans on Earth

Discuss life, the universe, and everything with other members of this site. Get to know your fellow polywell enthusiasts.

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Keegan
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Post by Keegan »

TallDave wrote:The Olympics will be very interesting, both for the world and for China.
I think there is a high chance of something bad happening at the Bejing Olympics. Whether an actual terrorist attack that will claim lives, or some "master plan"that was "foiled" last minute by the "authorites."

Conspiracy or not, I can just see it now, in the wake of an attack, all those twisted American NECONS saying "we told you so" - giving them an excuse to rape and plunder peoples constitutional liberties even further.

Anyone up for a bet ? I would place money on this.
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MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Keegan,

I am an American neocon and I can assure you we are not interested in rape and plunder.

We are interested in doing for the world what we did for South Korea and Japan.

1. Honest self government (which may require a period of authoritarianism to get the economic engine going)
2. Capitalism (for which property rights are essential)
3. Riches

Most of what you read about neocons has no basis in reality.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Nanos
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Post by Nanos »

I'm not sure Japan is especially grateful for having a couple of nukes thrown at it..

And property rights are rather exploited by the few to gain their riches at the expense of the vast majority of poor, who are just wage slaves to pay their mortgages/rents.

As for honest self government, if you mean like our lot, where 1 in 5 work for the government, and those high ranking beaurocrats give themselves 100%+ payrises, earn $400,000 a year whilst the rest of us scratch a living on $12,000 a year, and end up unaccountable to no one..

What we have ended up with is far from a land of oppertunity for the masses, more a slaughterhouse for those lucky few at the top to exploit everyone beneath them.


When I look at cooperatives (Which can run in a capitalist style, I'm not against earning wealth!) I can see a slightly different way to run things which shares out the wealth creation among its workers, rather than benefits one at the expense of everyone else.


I reckon the world is fast approaching a time when we need to be looking at working more cooperatively together, as a means to boost our economic output and our collective standard of living, than to keep stealing from each other in a constant battle of violence and wits.


Looking at China, they do appear to be doing things the right way, and have been for many years compared with our young countries elsewhere, I just hope they don't get too caught up with our approach and copy any of the bad stuff.

In the UK, I see already a fall of our civilisation in the last few decades, sure we have a few more fancy trinkets on our wrists, but we have closed our mines, the old people with skills are dying off, valuable farmland is being converted to expensive housing, and each year our education system insists on removing yet another subject so we don't find it all too challanging to figure out which TV button to press in our old age..

As a country that no longer has the capacity to feed itself, cloth itself, and has been living well beyond its real economic means that now our entire wealth generation is based on borrowing (stealing?) every penny from elsewhere in the world, I'm not sure how long we can survive before we desend into darkness.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.j ... ock114.xml

Is this the sign of success...

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

I'm scratching a living on around $12,000 a year.

Let me see if I can tell you how poor I am.

1. Auto
2. Hot and cold running water
3. Central air and heat
4. Piped in fuel
5. Electricity
6. A Cray 1 on my desktop
7. Telephone
8. Flush toilet
9. High speed internet service equivalent to 6 T1 lines
etc.

I live better than a kings did 150 years ago. Life is so tough.

The fact that Bill Gates or Warren Buffet are worth billions means nothing to me. Their money gets invested in the economy to make my life better.

The only people complaining about Bill and Warren are consumed with envy. I have my sins. That is not one of them.

==

BTW if Japan didn't want to get atomic bombed it ought to have avoided raping China and then starting a war with the US. It would have avoided getting nuked had it surrendered in June of '45. Some people are so stubborn.

Most unfortunate
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Nanos,

The fact that the UK is ruining its own economy is no one's fault but the people of that country. You have self government. It is your own fault.

There was nothing preventing you from becoming an industrial/economic/technological power house following WW2 except yourselves. Japan started with less and now has more.

Hong Kong started with much less.

You want to know what I think stunted your growth? Too much socialism, not enough capitalism.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Nanos
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Post by Nanos »

> Too much socialism, not enough capitalism

I'm somewhat in agreement there, here there is too much hatred of anyone who tries to make money, we are very backward in that department.

Unfortantly, that rather stifles development, though I can understand why the poor hate the rich, as most of my rich friends are pretty unpleasent individuals who have got to where they are by often underhanded means.

We do have capitalism, just the wrong sort :-)


> There was nothing preventing you from becoming an
> industrial/economic/technological power house

Agreed!

Though trying to motivate an entire country to get back on its feet is proving a little difficult..


Even though we are on double the minumn wage, we had to give up our car as it was beyond our means to afford the fuel for it, let along the cost of parts to fix it!

You don't mention your housing costs though ? (That accounts for some 40% being spent from our income.)


> You have self government

That reminds me of the South Park episode;

http://www.southparkzone.com/episodes/8 ... -Turd.html


> Their money gets invested in the economy to make my life better.

But does it though...

As I said, I have plenty of rich friends, they tell me what they invest their money in, and its nothing to help the poor at all. They like to put an awful lot of into property, high rents, thats making our lives better how ?

Or they invest in businesses.. look for an undervalued asset, buy it, sack a load of workers to boost short term profitability, sell it on for a fast buck.

None of them want to invest in anything long term to help people and themselves, their concern is the price of shares tomorrow, not whether Johnny down the road has a job to put food on his table or not, the I'm alright Jack approach.

I used to think it was envy, but having studied it a little, I notice that once someone gets some wealth, the majority change from pleasent, help their neighbour types, to penny pinching misor who would do over their own granny if it made them an extra buck or two.

Didn't Bill Gates make his money by exploiting and taking credit for the work of someone else to get started...

(This does seem a common theme, its more about political maneuvoring and social skills, than actual ability to do the work, as long as you can steal someone else's hard work, you got it made!)


Its a little unclear whether Japan started the war, or if the US really wanted to start a war with Japan..

http://www.threeworldwars.com/world-war-2/ww2.htm


And there was me thinking the dropping of a couple of nukes on Japan was a show of force to the Russians, and little to do with any surrendering going on in the background..

TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

I'm not sure Japan is especially grateful for having a couple of nukes thrown at it..
Probably not, and even less so the napalming of Tokyo, but they were grateful we ended up occupying them rather than the Soviets, and with good reason.

And before you shed too many tears for them, keep in mind they invaded China with the intent of seizing it, raped Nanking, killed millions of Chinese, and kept Chinese women as sex slaves. They knew the consequences of Pearl Harbor. They took their gamble and lost.

TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

Or they invest in businesses.. look for an undervalued asset, buy it, sack a load of workers to boost short term profitability, sell it on for a fast buck. .... None of them want to invest in anything long term to help people and themselves, their concern is the price of shares tomorrow, not whether Johnny down the road has a job to put food on his table or not, the I'm alright Jack approach.


That's a common criticism of capitalism, but it misses the point of cumulative productivity improvements.

Say someone invents a machine that puts buttons on clothes. Now up until this time, people have been doing that job, but the machine does it ten times as fast for a tenth of the cost.

A company can shoose to adopt the machine and fire the workers, or not adopt it and incur higher costs. Well, the company that buys the machine wins; they sell their clothes for less and the companies that don't lose business to them.

Here's the bits that too often get forgotten: the consumer is the real winner here, with lower prices, and while a lot of button-attachers lose their jobs, the people who make the button machine have new jobs that are probably higher paid -- desigining machines requires engineering knowledge.

Keegan
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Post by Keegan »

MSimon wrote:I am an American neocon and I can assure you we are not interested in rape and plunder.......

Most of what you read about neocons has no basis in reality.

Im not really talking about people as neocons as such but what words would you use to describe the current administration ?

I voted for John Howard in our last election (Equivalent to voting Republican). Being in a younger demographic this was most certainly against the grain considering I had talks with our Current Prime minister Kevin Rudd when i was a Prefect in high school. He was a Local Member at the time, and i just knew i would be seeing that smug face alot more one day (rather it has lost its smugness rather quickly.....)

My point is that some of my politics may parallel yours, but you have an incumbent president who practically stole an election. Has gone out on a whim and has mocked the voice and will of the people by Instigating a war, introducing wide sweeping laws such as the patriot act eroding peoples liberties, all the while putting the country into huge debt.

There seems to be general consensus on the net (like poeple from the 9th circuit on slashdot.org) that the Fourth Amendment just doesnt apply anymore. How long before the Fourteenth Amendment bites the dust ?

If one wanted to save the current American administrations legacy from decades of redicule, a terrorist attack at a foreign competitors Olympics could certainly justify the Militaristic Orwellian agenda of the last 2 terms of office to the people.


So 20 bucks, bad things happening in Bejing ............anyone ?


*I would also like to state this is simply a thought exercise. I have many Chinese friends and nothing but the utmost respect for China and what its achieving*
Purity is Power

djolds1
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Post by djolds1 »

93143 wrote:I'm not saying we'll see a total collapse during our lifetimes (or ever - but that's a whole other issue), or that we're anywhere near total understanding and mastery of the physical universe.
Total collapse - only if an object the size of Mars hits this planet in this century.

As for the physical universe, the West's Scientific Revolution is IMO approaching the end of how far its model of science can go. Notice that the last iteration of rational science (Classical Antiquity) topped out at the Aristotelean model. The tools and mindsets of each (word problems vs algebraic math, whole numbers vs infinite divisibility, etc) provide philosophical and perceptual limits that the people of the distinct civilizations just can't see past. The West is approaching its "final" model of physics, just as Aristotle provided Antiquity's.
93143 wrote:Let me add that I think I see some signs that our explosive technological progress to date may actually be starting to sag, again not for technical reasons but for human ones... I hope I'm wrong. Either way, if Polywell works it will almost certainly provide a significant upward kick to the curve...
I hope that the West's final model provides the toys I've wanted since forever. :)

The raw power provided by polywell would make a number of things much more practical as well. Propulsion, as mentioned in other places. Powering portable universal mini-factories (think two steps cruder than a nanotech assembler), etc.
93143 wrote:...oh yes, and knowledge can indeed be lost. 1) Linear B (temporary), 2) the library at Alexandria (permanent). You're right that we aren't headed back to the Stone Age, but our industrial society is actually a lot more precarious than it looks - it depends on continued massive industrial effort to keep the supply chains up and running. Could you - could anyone - make a car or a computer using just random scrap in a machine shop powered by an old solar panel?
Actually, no. We can lose jewels of knowledge, tiny bits of beauty, but the basics stick around. Knowledge of how to run the electrorefining of aluminum and titanium aren't going to go away. Ability to smelt steel via the open hearth-method, permanent. Ability to make ICE engines, even adapt them to alcohol fuel, permanent. Basic knowledge of aerodynamics through 1940-'45, probably permanent. Basic drugs as of 1960, permanent. Ability to build crude transistors and kit computers c.1975, very probably permanent.

Kick a few knowledgeable people back to the bronze age and, if they're not enslaved, raped & murdered, they could recreate tech c. 1850 in a few months to a year, say two decades to get to 1910. A century to reclaim 1980.

Even if knocked flat, the knowledge exists to rebuild to something very close to where we are.
Vae Victis

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Scientific revolutions come in waves.

We are at the end of the easy gains from computing power.

The next wave (nanotechnology? biotechnology?) hasn't started producing enough gains to affect our current situation.
Kick a few knowledgeable people back to the bronze age and, if they're not enslaved, raped & murdered, they could recreate tech c. 1850 in a few months to a year, say two decades to get to 1910. A century to reclaim 1980.

Even if knocked flat, the knowledge exists to rebuild to something very close to where we are.
And it can be done faster because the possibilities are already known.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

My point is that some of my politics may parallel yours, but you have an incumbent president who practically stole an election. Has gone out on a whim and has mocked the voice and will of the people by Instigating a war, introducing wide sweeping laws such as the patriot act eroding peoples liberties, all the while putting the country into huge debt.
Nope. Election not stolen. Any recount according to the rules operable at the time would have given Bush the election. According to the New York Times.

Had Al Gore gotten the votes of the people who knew him best (his home state of Tennessee) he would have won the election without Florida.

The war was voted for by Congress. The AUMF that Congress passed reads very similar to the AUMF that was passed against the Barbary Pirates (the jihadis of that era). You can look it up in the Wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... mn-it.html

also in the comments here:

http://www.classicalvalues.com/archives ... n_rac.html

The Patriot Act was voted on by Congress and is much milder that many of the similar type laws passed during the American Civil War.

In addition the current Congress has had plenty of opportunities to cut off war funding. They have been unable to. You might want to look into Blue Dog Democrats to find out why.

American debt is in the low middle range of first world countries at about 60% of GDP. Japan - hardly considered insolvent - has a debt of 130% of GDP.

As I said - there is a lot of misinformation out there.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Re: the Fourth Amendment,

Have to agree with you there. The Drug War is the cause.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

djolds1
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Post by djolds1 »

MSimon wrote:Scientific revolutions come in waves.

We are at the end of the easy gains from computing power.

The next wave (nanotechnology? biotechnology?) hasn't started producing enough gains to affect our current situation.
I look at things in a VERY broad & generalized way.

Calling something the "information revolution" is a joke IMO. It is a phase of the industrial revolution, with the most recent phase of the West's Scientific Revolution thrown in.

IMO opinion the Industrial Revolution will prove to be as momentous as the Agricultural Revolution 10,000 years ago. But speaking of "The Information Age" is as foolish as speaking of "The Wheat Age" and "The Vegetable Age." Especially if we see a longer lasting syncretic period coming up. Something that lasts less than a century is not an "Age," it is a transition.

Advances in biology, possibly even nanotechnology, will enhance our technological capabilities. But I doubt they will much alter our fundamental picture of the physical rules of the universe, in the way that the West's Scientific Revolution fundamentally altered Antiquity's models of physics and cosmology. Bio and nano are incremental advances, not asymptotic jumps or phase changes in perspective.

Early Renaissance science to Newton to Einstein/Heisenberg to "Final" are stages in the Scientific Revolution of the West, not scientific revolutions in their own right. Much as Thales, Eudoxus, Archimedes and Galen represent the phases of Antiquarian science.
MSimon wrote:And it can be done faster because the possibilities are already known.
Yup. Hell, if you or I wanted to we could build nuclear reactors (well, piles) in our living rooms with only basic knowledge and the most simple of processes. Its already been done, actually. A kid named David Hahn.

Duane
Vae Victis

djolds1
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Post by djolds1 »

MSimon wrote:Dave,

The Chinese are taking the Taiwan/South Korea approach to gaining self government.

Authoritarian rule to provide an economic base. Then a transition.

It takes about 30 years.
Agree about stage one. Its the model used across all of East Asia. Keiretsus, Chaebols, etc. Build up advanced heavy industry under a dirigiste system behind protectionist barriers. The only way to scale up infant industries to where they can compete on the world stage with the established monster corporations.

Disagree about stage two. The CPPRC, in cooperation with the PLA, has no intention of giving up power.
Vae Victis

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