Could ME thrusters be used to produce torque?

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Helius
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Post by Helius »

TallDave wrote:Actually, Helius, you might be onto something there (assuming, as still seems unlikely, there is something to the Mach effect).

Conventional wisdom is that highly advanced civilizations might be very hard to find because they would tend to build Dyson spheres in order to fully utilize the energy of their stars. But if you can use the Mach effect for essentially infinite power, they might be considerably easier to find. Depends on the power density I suppose.
Perhaps our High School experimenter, in quantifying his experimental fudge factor, has all the information he needs to accurately estimate the sum of all energy consumption by advanced civilizations in the universe....those Civilizations using the Mach Effect. :)

TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

Once you drop the idea that we're expaning through 3D space but recognise it is through higher dimensions (which, frankly, doesn't take a genius to accept is possible) then you have both satisfied - all points in space are expanding uniformly with respect to each other AND we're expanding from a single point (which is a point no longer in our 3-space). Seems self-evidently the most satisfactory answer to me.
Again, a common misconception. There are three "large" dimensions which have been unfurling since the Big Bang. Space is not expanding "into" anything, it is just expanding.
What is the universe expanding into?
The universe is not expanding into anything, almost by definition; there is simply more space at later times than at earlier times. It may be that the size of the universe is infinite, which is easy to conceptualize.

But even if the universe is finite, it is possible to make more space without having any "outside" space. A common analogy is to consider that it is possible to increase the surface area of a balloon by inflating it, without needing any additional balloons to facilitate the expansion. However, a balloon is a two-dimensional surface expanding into a three-dimensional space. There is not theorized to be a higher-dimensional space which three-dimensional space is expanding into; more of it simply appears as if by stretching.[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion_of_the_universe

The higher dimensions, as best we can theorize, are furled in a Calabi-Yau shape and give rise to matter and energy (according to string theory).

Either way, the upshot is that special relativity is only locally valid. Two points can be separating much faster than c in three dimensions.
According to the equivalence principle of general relativity, the rules of special relativity are locally valid in small regions of spacetime that are approximately flat. In particular, light always travels locally at the speed c; in our diagram, this means that light beams always make an angle of 45° with the local grid lines. It does not follow, however, that light travels a distance ct in a time t, as the red worldline illustrates. While it always moves locally at c, its time in transit (about 13 billion years) is not related to the distance traveled in any simple way. In fact the distance traveled is inherently ambiguous because of the changing scale of the universe. Nevertheless, we can single out two distances which appear to be physically meaningful: the distance between the Earth and the quasar when the light was emitted, and the distance between them in the present era. The former distance is about 4 billion light years, much smaller than ct. The latter distance (shown by the orange line) is about 28 billion light years, much larger than ct. Note that the light took much longer than 4 billion years to reach us though it was emitted from only 4 billion light years away. In fact, we can see from the diagram that the light was moving away from the Earth when it was first emitted, in the sense that the metric distance to the Earth increased with cosmological time for the first few billion years of its travel time. None of this surprising behavior originates from a special property of metric expansion, but simply from local principles of special relativity integrated over a curved surface.

chrismb
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Post by chrismb »

TallDave wrote:
What is the universe expanding into?
The universe is not expanding into anything, almost by definition; there is simply more space at later times than at earlier times. It may be that the size of the universe is infinite, which is easy to conceptualize.
You seem to be hunting after an esoteric answer that gets you to a point of infinite hand-waving with ne'er a real resolution to the geometry, but the oh-so-simple answer is that there are more dimensions.
TallDave wrote:But even if the universe is finite, it is possible to make more space without having any "outside" space. A common analogy is to consider that it is possible to increase the surface area of a balloon by inflating it, without needing any additional balloons to facilitate the expansion. However, a balloon is a two-dimensional surface expanding into a three-dimensional space. There is not theorized to be a higher-dimensional space which three-dimensional space is expanding into; more of it simply appears as if by stretching.[7]
Why say this - is it just because Wiki says so? Seems a good starting point, that we're a 3D volume on the surface of a 4D inflating baloon, though that isn't my opinion as there is a better geometry.

TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

You seem to be hunting after an esoteric answer

More dimensions is more esoteric. I don't know why you think the standard cosmology is missing a geometric resolution.
Why say this - is it just because Wiki says so?
Because another large dimension isn't necessary to explain anything. In cosmology you generally don't posit things without a need for them. It's what separates it from religion.

This is pretty standard cosmology. That's why it's in the wiki.

I just thought you might like to understand why two distant points can move away from each other much faster than 2 * c.

paulmarch
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Post by paulmarch »

Betruger wrote:Unless I'm mistaken (apologies in advance if I am), Woodward or one of his colaborators either based their hypothesies on, or their hypothesies were well-fitting with Barbour's non-time theory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKsNraFxPwk
See Woodward's Foundations of Physics' "Killing Time" paper for your answer. This viewpoint is based on Mach’s principle and GRT's views on time, that being that the past, present & future are in reality one giant "NOW". Barbour's views parallel Mach's Principle and GRT's along with Wheeler/Feynman/Cramer’s views on same. Now we have QM's Wheeler DeWitt equation that also indicates that Newton’s objective river of time does not exist, but rather the flow of time is just a figment of the summation of our minds grappling with survival.

http://physics.fullerton.edu/~jimw/kill-time/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeler%E2 ... t_equation
Paul March
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Betruger
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Post by Betruger »

Just what I was looking for, thanks :)

93143
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Post by 93143 »

Perhaps the misunderstanding is fairly basic after all?

The average speed of a proton in the core of the sun is about 5.5e5 m/s, or roughly ten times the Hubble recession velocity at the distance of the Andromeda galaxy. Since Andromeda is actually approaching us at 3e5 m/s, it is suboptimal from a traction perspective. I calculate (slap dash numerical integration in Matlab; could be wrong) that in a sunlike star in that galaxy, any randomly chosen proton in the core has about a 4.2e-18 chance of having a velocity within one metre per second of an object on Earth. For a one-solar-mass star, that's 8.4e12 kg, assuming the entire mass is that hot (if it isn't, things get better before they get worse, because the distribution contracts towards the values you want). For the entire Andromeda galaxy (7.1e11 solar masses), treated under these assumptions, you get almost exactly one Earth mass being within 1 m/s of any bulk object in the solar system. Remember that this is just a miniscule fraction of a thermal distribution; the actual mass available to absorb momentum change over the long term is better represented by the whole thing, since the tiny slice you interact with is continually recycled via random collisions.

If the whole Andromeda galaxy were at a temperature of about 3e6 K (a good portion of the sun is hotter than this), that number rises to about 2.5 Earth masses. Below that, it starts to fall. If Andromeda were receding at the Hubble rate, you'd get about 1.4 Earth masses at solar core temperature, or 350 Earth masses at 1e5 K. These numbers are further screwed up by the fact that Andromeda is moving laterally with respect to us (though apparently not fast enough to avoid a collision) as well as the fact that in Andromeda's case stellar orbital velocities can be between 50 and 250 km/s.

But you get the general idea; this means that there should still be particles that can be efficiently pushed on quite a distance away from here - even if I'm not wrong about how this is supposed to work, which I very well might be; perhaps there's something about the theory that compensates for metric expansion and allows things to work out more evenly. Maybe I shouldn't guess wildly about what a theory contains without having actually grappled with the math...

Either way, I hope you no longer believe the Mach-effect drive to be in obvious violation of conservation of momentum and/or energy, considering what the discussion has turned into...?

Broken record disclaimer time: I'm NOT saying this will work. I'm saying that conservation can in principle be respected by a device that does what the Mach-effect drive is supposed to do, so if it DOESN'T work, it will be for some other reason.
Last edited by 93143 on Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

hanelyp
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Post by hanelyp »

93143, you present a model in which the ME thruster's claimed performance would not violate energy-momentum. It still has some points that stretch credibility: A force that apparently does not diminish with distance, and which preferentially acts on mass nearly at rest relative to the thruster. Also, propagation speed for this force is unclear and potentially a problem. Consider the potential for this device to serve as a signal transmitter, received by mass at rest in the transmitter's frame.

Bottom line: I'm going to need a pretty clear experimental signal independently reproduced before I consider the claims to have much foundation.

93143
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Post by 93143 »

hanelyp wrote:A force ... which preferentially acts on mass nearly at rest relative to the thruster.
That's my own idea. Power equals force times velocity, after all, and I don't see any other way to get the 1 N/W talked about by the proponents unless there's an awful lot of seriously weird sympathetic energy transfer going on... maybe there is, and I missed a detail somewhere...

Oh well. Experiments are ongoing; that's what matters.

EricF
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Post by EricF »

Man, that article Killing Time gave me a headache. In fact every time I sit down to try and reason out more of this mach effect concept I get a headache. Do they make a 'smart' pill?

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

Studies prove that caffeine has a measurable positive correlation with intellect. Jolt Cola anyone?

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

TallDave,

According to Feynman's concept of Space-Time we are affected by the future, the past, and things going faster than light speed (slower too of course).

So space could very well be larger than observed space. And the Lorentz equation if looked at geometrically argues for at least one more dimension. At right angles to the current three.

Consider http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_transformation

I tend to fall in with chris on this one. Everything is moving at the speed of light if you consider all dimensions. "Real" motion in observed space means slower motion in the invisible dimensions.

Of course it could all be something else even stranger. Or I haven't had enough coffee.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

paulmarch
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Post by paulmarch »

93143 wrote:
hanelyp wrote:A force ... which preferentially acts on mass nearly at rest relative to the thruster.
That's my own idea. Power equals force times velocity, after all, and I don't see any other way to get the 1 N/W talked about by the proponents unless there's an awful lot of seriously weird sympathetic energy transfer going on... maybe there is, and I missed a detail somewhere...

Oh well. Experiments are ongoing; that's what matters.
93143:

I think we have to look at what QM and Quantum Chromo dynamics (QCD) from particle physics brings to the energy table in the quest of understanding how one can build the 1.0 N/W M-E thruster. In particular, QCD states that a proton is made up of two up and one down quark that are held together by gluons. Now 90+% of the rest mass of the proton is tied up in the kinetic energy of these gluons that never cease to be in motion, even if the proton in question is standing still relative to the rest of the universe. The gluon’s kinetic energy is the source of the M-E because it is the seat of the gravinertial field that permeates the cosmos no matter how many dimensions we find greater than four. In other words the M-E has on tap the energy density equivalent to matter/anti-matter reactions, but on a much grander scale since it has access to 1x10^80+ atoms that are composed of many more gluons in each proton and neutron so contained. Lucky for us, what will always throttle this energy flux transfer to our local M-E drive connection is the maturity of the power electronics technology we use to implement it. However some day we may be able to create stars with this stuff...

BTW, another good paper on this topic is Jim Woodward's "Twists of Fate".
http://www.springerlink.com/content/911x602n2x6w3261/
Paul March
Friendswood, TX

EricF
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Post by EricF »

paulmarch wrote: Now 90+% of the rest mass of the proton is tied up in the kinetic energy of these gluons that never cease to be in motion, even if the proton in question is standing still relative to the rest of the universe. The gluon’s kinetic energy is the source of the M-E because it is the seat of the gravinertial field that permeates the cosmos no matter how many dimensions we find greater than four. /
Paul,

If I understand correctly the origin of inertia then are the gluons? Now the movement of the proton itself in 3 dimensions somehow causes the mass to increase, because imparting movement imparts energy (the sum of which I suppose we call momentum?). Is this increase in mass (specifically as the particle approaches C) due to a change in the property of the gluons ie they also are moving much faster, or is it due to an increase in gluon number?

paulmarch
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Post by paulmarch »

EricF wrote:
paulmarch wrote: Now 90+% of the rest mass of the proton is tied up in the kinetic energy of these gluons that never cease to be in motion, even if the proton in question is standing still relative to the rest of the universe. The gluon’s kinetic energy is the source of the M-E because it is the seat of the gravinertial field that permeates the cosmos no matter how many dimensions we find greater than four. /
Paul,

If I understand correctly the origin of inertia then are the gluons? Now the movement of the proton itself in 3 dimensions somehow causes the mass to increase, because imparting movement imparts energy (the sum of which I suppose we call momentum?). Is this increase in mass (specifically as the particle approaches C) due to a change in the property of the gluons ie they also are moving much faster, or is it due to an increase in gluon number?
Eric:

We have no way to tell at this stage what is happening in the nucleus for this was just a speculation on my part, but it was a speculation supported by our current QCD models. As far as what the far off gluons do in an M-E interation, their number per nucleon has never been observed to change in any recorded interaction, so it would be my best guess that their net kinetic energy might be reduced, which would lower the proton or neutron's effective mass. It's that good old E=m*c^2 equation again, but this time spread over the entire causally connected universe...
Paul March
Friendswood, TX

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