Go Navy!

[GIThruster]

I will take your word for it! This is the trouble with getting intel from the web. But I would note to you where some of the confusion comes in. There are lots of ex-smugglers who tell these stories like here:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0918/p05s01-woam.html

and these are not the fastest boats available. I seem to recall there was a couple in the UK building smugglers' specials that used 8, 250HP motors and those were rumored to make 80 knots on the surface. Of course, that is on the surface and when there's any wave motion at all, this translates to far less.

But I will own that the story is usually that the authorities can't see the smugglers. That's another, much more complex issue. Seems to me though, the Coast Guard should have eyes on the gulf and CA coast with very special sats that can track any motion and relay that data to the Guard. I can't imagine actually stopping the go fast shipping in any other way.

[ladajo]

Fitted with up to five 250-horsepower outboard motors, go-fasts can reach speeds of 50 knots (about 60 mph) – faster than most Navy vessels.

Not at sea it won't. And if it trys, it won't be for long.

I have spent time in, inland of and off shore Tumaco. Lovely place. You should visit. Take a vest and an EPIRB or PLB.
I should also note that Admiral Guillermo Barrera is a personal friend.

This guy talked it up a bit, to be expected. Turbines. Right.

Also, they are not experts. They are stupid and desperate for "easy money". I know of a number who died. I also know of many who never made it home. They like to show you pics of the wife and kids. Half the time you can tell they are fake pics. Somehow they think it will influence letting them go.

Running a high performance boat at sea is hard. It takes training and understanding to get the best and most out of the boat and keep it running. It also takes managing your physical state. These guys are not that.

As for power, most of that goes to moving the boat at all. Google around and you will find where these 10M class boats have been loaded with several metric tonnes of cargo. It takes a lot of power to move that.

I will not speak to surveillance and tracking. I will also not speak to interdiction methology. The 150ft didn't see him quote is bullshit as well. In 2002 the Columbians were desperate for US money and support. They really talked the problem up given a chance.

[GIThruster]

Also, they are not experts. They are stupid and desperate for "easy money". I know of a number who died. I also know of many who never made it home.

Most criminals are stupid.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2012-1 ... rd-cocaine

[ladajo]

Yes, that happens. Refer to my earlier points. These clowns are doing open ocean transits of thousands of miles.

[GIThruster]

One would think, that anti-piracy is easier in that any ship under assault ought to have at least a few moments to send a signal of their whereabouts. The question then becomes whether help can get there in time. That is much more likely with more, faster ships like the Independence.

I would be just as enthusiastic about the Freedom class, except that they didn't make spec on the reduced crew requirement. I can't understand why it was built apart from wanting to support the MIC.

[ladajo]

They both have essentially the same manning. I am not sure what you are going on about there.

And yes, typically anti-piracy is about asset placement. The best place is right on board.

The other best place is at the pirate home bases.

If it was not for wishy-washy fear of lawyers, piracy would be dead and buried. Literally.
The sad part is that there are clear laws and guidance on what to do. But the lawfear has clouded them to unintelligiable at best.

But, that said, in recent years the willingness to embark security as well as go ashore has put a massive dent in the pirates. To bad it was not done when first suggested back in 2002/03.
10+ years of fun in support of pussy footing around. Just like the ninety's with Saddam.

I need a drink.

[GIThruster]

You'd need to look at the original specs for the class, but it was something like 40 core plus some specials with mission packages, and the Freedom was over spec by fully 20%. They built it anyway.

[ladajo]

As I said above, I am fully familiar (in the first person) with both LCS 1 & 2 class.
I do not see your point about manning as an issue. I am not sure what you are basing the critique on or why.
It almost sounds like a media bullet.
Manning requirements for both have changed a number of times, and probably will change again. This happens with every ship the navy operates. Requirements change. Equipment changes. Projected operating environments change. The point is that the other guy (and mother nature) always get a vote as well. When they vote, or are predicted to, this can generate changes in programs.
Even Ron O'Rourke's latest is OBE (not to mention some points being based on historical "passed and openings".) It is really just a few more points added to the previous versions. He also can not include classified assessments or implications in his work given the scope and bounds of his mandate. I have spoken with him in the past on LCS, and he admits and claims a certain amount of self-imposed and structural limits in order to maintain "political neutrality".
Of course in my own opinion, the ability for his office to remain completely neutral is suspect at best.
I will offer that most publically raised concerns on LCS are based on old information and not up to date with current program activity or initiatives. Mccain is one of the worst for this. His critiques truly do live in the past. His latest LCS floor diatribe was like a MASH re-run in context. You can find the transcript if you poke around.

Beh. Again, like I said, I am way more familiar with LCS than I ever thought I would be or truly wanted to be. But, I will admit it has been a interesting journey that I suspect is not yet over.

[GIThruster]

You're right again. I am relating a media bullet. I think it was in Janes, but I don't recall. It was years ago.

What I do recall was that the original solicitation was for a crew of 40 max, and that General Dynamics met that criteria, but LockMart did not. And this is what happens with LockMart all the time. They get a pass where their competitors don't. If you'll recall, the N-G offerings for both the F-23 and for the Orion capsule were considered to be technically superior to the L-M offerings, yet DOD and NASA both chose L-M because they have DOD's "confidence". And here we have an example where L-M didn't even make the original spec, but DOD bought the thing anyway. Freedom is faster than Independence, but we don't know what these two ships would look like had DOD stuck to their guns with the original solicitation. And really, I am so tired of LockMart doing whatever they like and getting the contracts anyway. Look at this tragedy with DOD contracting with ULA for vastly more expensive launches than SpaceX can provide. It's staggering when you think about it, that SpaceX should have to sue the government, but what choice did they have?

I am all pro-military, but the Military Industrial Complex does not have defense as its first criteria. They're out to bilk the American public for as much as they can get on every occasion and this SO needs to change.

Independence has a bigger flight deck and 20% lower crew requirements, and those crew end up being a significant portion of the Navy's responsibilities. the Navy cares about seeing they pay their guys right. The MIC does not give a hoot.

[MSimon]

The MI complex is an idiot. I was doing Forth Programming language for an R&D shoot out back in the early 80s. I was regularly beating out a team from Collins by 6 months (they used C) vs 1 month for us. Using far fewer people. That is a huge gain in software productivity. So did the Navy take the lesson to heart? They sure did. They outlawed Forth.

About the only place Forth has purchase is in space.

So what advantage does C give you (the Navy's desired at the time)? You can use armies of mediocre programmers because it has belts and suspenders. What do you do with Forth? Get rid of the mediocre programmers and just use the best.

We will be hitting a wall soon. When we do better processors (two or more stacks) and better programming will start to pay.

[KitemanSA]

Oh goody, another "LCS ... Little Crappy Ship"

You do realize that for the cost of a single Zumwalt class destroyer, we can build 5 Independence class ships and that the latter move more than 50% faster. They really are the best choice for hunting pirates and a handful of other things. Aluminum tri-hulls carrying UAV's and choppers are here to stay. Destroyers can't catch the tiny sport boats favored by today's pirates. The Independence class can, by being in 5X as many places at once.

I just hope the pirates don't fight back. We might become a bit embarrassed.

[GIThruster]

I just hope the pirates don't fight back. We might become a bit embarrassed.

If you're referring to the aluminum hull, I would just note to you, the captain of the ship knows what his ship can take, and I doubt given the option to put drones and helos on the target, as well as the 8 km range of the 57mm Bofors and Hellfire, there is very little reason to put the ship at risk. The Firescouts carry laser guided Hydra 70 rockets now, that makes them especially lethal, and the Seahawks can carry Hellfires as well, so anyone who isn't prepared to shoot a helo down is going to do exactly what they're told to do. Seems to me the real risk in anti-piracy is the crew aboard the Seahawks. If a pirate had an OBama gift provided Stinger, the helo would be at risk, but not the Independence.

[ladajo]

Once a warship demonstrates intent, pirates have learned to not get froggy. At that point they tend to float test anything they can get their mits on that might be considered a weapon. They all know the couple of times they have engaged a warship did not go well. They also tend to cap out in my experience with 7.62 and RPGs. Remember they are in it for the easy money, not getting killed. It is about effort and return. They also know that more often than not, when they give up they are not treated badly.

LCS may not be many things, but a it is a warship regardless that some think not. I have found that most critics have not even seen either class in real life, let alone been on them to see for themselves. They recycle dated inaccurate material over and over thinking it says something meaningful.

[GIThruster]

In case anyone else is curious about piracy:

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/economy ... nk-n203496

[GIThruster]

http://sploid.gizmodo.com/these-us-navy ... s=og.likes