Nuclear Reactors Hit By Earthquake In Japan
The pools are already empty einstein.Massive flows could empty the pools rather than fill them
What they need is "coolant flow" restored and given the state of the place the only way they are going to do that now is by pouring water over the pile of rubble that used to be the hot rock ... it has the added bonus of pulling airbourne crap down with the spray also.
You'll see, it'll be what they end doing anyway, except it has taken 7 days of airbourne crap spewing into the atmosphere to figure it out.
I'll bet you wish you were in charge eh Kite ego?
This is a damned either way scenario.
The more water you pour on, the better you control airborne particulate, as well as add to the heat sink.
However, the more water you pour on, the longer it is gonna be before you can have a picnic, plant some flowers, eat fish, or drink the water.
The grounds have got to be really crapped up by now, and the water is not going to help that. Eventually they can wash a major amount of the containments to the sea, but, there will still be a large percentage that enters the ground and sticks around for a while.
Yup, brass plaque time, "The Fukushima Memorial Non-Picnic Grounds"
The old analogy for contamination and radiation is really holding true here. They certainly have a lot of shyte that is sure stinking up the area.
The more water you pour on, the better you control airborne particulate, as well as add to the heat sink.
However, the more water you pour on, the longer it is gonna be before you can have a picnic, plant some flowers, eat fish, or drink the water.
The grounds have got to be really crapped up by now, and the water is not going to help that. Eventually they can wash a major amount of the containments to the sea, but, there will still be a large percentage that enters the ground and sticks around for a while.
Yup, brass plaque time, "The Fukushima Memorial Non-Picnic Grounds"
The old analogy for contamination and radiation is really holding true here. They certainly have a lot of shyte that is sure stinking up the area.
Well if this article is correct, then my earlier comment about the japs dropping the ball is true on a whole other level I never imagined ... read it and weep.Geo-politics, crap engineering, crapped-up nuke facility, this one's got all the short-comings of big govt. and big science plastered all over it.
http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNew ... 46444.html
TOKYO - JAPAN turned down a US offer to provide technical support for cooling fuel rods at nuclear reactors hit by a massive earthquake and tsunami, a newspaper reported on Friday.
The United States made the offer immediately after the disaster caused damage to Fukushima No.1 nuclear plant, the Yomiuri Shimbun said, quoting a senior official of the ruling Democratic Party of Japan.
According to the unnamed senior official, US support was based on dismantling the troubled reactors run by Tokyo Electric Power (Tepco) some 250km north-east of Tokyo, the mass-circulation daily said.
The government and Tepco, both having first thought the cooling system could be restored by themselves, rejected the offer as they believed 'it was too early to take,' Yomiuri said.
http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNew ... 46444.html
TOKYO - JAPAN turned down a US offer to provide technical support for cooling fuel rods at nuclear reactors hit by a massive earthquake and tsunami, a newspaper reported on Friday.
The United States made the offer immediately after the disaster caused damage to Fukushima No.1 nuclear plant, the Yomiuri Shimbun said, quoting a senior official of the ruling Democratic Party of Japan.
According to the unnamed senior official, US support was based on dismantling the troubled reactors run by Tokyo Electric Power (Tepco) some 250km north-east of Tokyo, the mass-circulation daily said.
The government and Tepco, both having first thought the cooling system could be restored by themselves, rejected the offer as they believed 'it was too early to take,' Yomiuri said.
I think the problem with the hoses is that they cant get near enough with them.
They have had plenty of time to bring in those ships from god knows where, from the other side of the country even. No need to have them sitting in the harbor. I cant believe that they dont have ships like that anywhere in the country.
The BBC said that only very little of the water that they are dropping from the helicopters actually gets where it should and the helicopters cant fly lower because of the radiation. With planes they would pour water over a wider area, yes, but they would also bring more of it where it should go. That is at least my oppinion. The ships would of course be better even.
What I am also surprised by is that they dont have any reconnaissance robots that they can send it to look at the situation up close. I thought those little tracked fellas where everywhere these days.
They have had plenty of time to bring in those ships from god knows where, from the other side of the country even. No need to have them sitting in the harbor. I cant believe that they dont have ships like that anywhere in the country.
The BBC said that only very little of the water that they are dropping from the helicopters actually gets where it should and the helicopters cant fly lower because of the radiation. With planes they would pour water over a wider area, yes, but they would also bring more of it where it should go. That is at least my oppinion. The ships would of course be better even.
What I am also surprised by is that they dont have any reconnaissance robots that they can send it to look at the situation up close. I thought those little tracked fellas where everywhere these days.
Fire ships is the clearly best option, allowing workers the best stand-off distance ... just not quite sure they could reach the reactors or pools from the harbour with their cannons, how deep the water is, etc. A more solid jet can go further but will be more solid (disruptive) and less atomised (spray-like) when it lands, they can adjust that though.
I am still convinced that planes would work better than helicopters do.
I do not agree with Kiteman, when he says that the "massive flows from the plane could empty the pools". From what I understand, problem right now is that there is not enough water even reaching the pools. Most of the water those helicopters keep pouring down is blown away by the wind before it eve reaches the pools. The helicopters cant fly lower though, because of the radiation.
So the logical solution should be to pour more water at once, so more of it has a chance of reaching the pools. Planes could also fly higher while achieving the same as the helicopters, or even more than that. That would reduce the radiation exposure for the pilots. Also means less downtime, etc.
These photographs would suggest that water cannons on ships should be able to reach the reactors from the sea, at least some of them:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12762381
I do not agree with Kiteman, when he says that the "massive flows from the plane could empty the pools". From what I understand, problem right now is that there is not enough water even reaching the pools. Most of the water those helicopters keep pouring down is blown away by the wind before it eve reaches the pools. The helicopters cant fly lower though, because of the radiation.
So the logical solution should be to pour more water at once, so more of it has a chance of reaching the pools. Planes could also fly higher while achieving the same as the helicopters, or even more than that. That would reduce the radiation exposure for the pilots. Also means less downtime, etc.
These photographs would suggest that water cannons on ships should be able to reach the reactors from the sea, at least some of them:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12762381
Yeah, hadn't seen that picture. Reactor 3 and 4 definitely look accessible to fire ship cannons from the bottom left corner of the pic. 3 is the reactor in the worst shape apparently and Reactor 4 is not loaded but is where the empty spent fuel rod pool that is smoking away and the biggest concern also I think (someone mention they actually might have some live MOX fuel that was ready to go into the reactor in the pool above 4, so not all spent ...!) ... so yeah, try getting a fireship in close there, lead-line the bridge and crank up the pumps .... seems unbelievable they would try tokyo city fire brigade engines and futile helicopter drops before a fireship
It has a continuous pressurization source called gravity.Skipjack wrote: Can they get enough pressure to press the water all the way through such a long hose?
Hoses can be pretty long.Skipjack wrote: Those helicopters have to fly pretty high due to the radiation.
The hose only sees the water when the upper dump valve is opened and then the water just falls thru the hose. It is a "surgical dump conduit", not a pressurized water projector.Skipjack wrote: Also, with a water hose under pressure like that, I wonder how that would affect the abilities and the savety of the helicopter.
May take them a couple of tries to learn how to respond to offsets.
Well, I see people struggling to control fire water hoses all the time.
Heck, the mythbusters made a car hover on the water jets coming from a bunch of them.
That is why I am asking. I am not sure how a strong jet of water would affect the helicopter, especially since it might turn and twist arround rather freely if suspended from a helicopter.
Also, I am not sure what you mean with gravity. Water pressure from gravity only works if the water is coming from a source located high enough above the area, e.g. a mountain or a water tower. If the helicopters have to fly higher than the water tower, then you wont get enough pressure to get the water all the way up the hose.
That was my concern.
In any case these water hoses are rather stiff when under pressure. I have never seen a helicopter carry arround a water hose, so I am not sure that this can work as you imagine it.
Heck, the mythbusters made a car hover on the water jets coming from a bunch of them.
That is why I am asking. I am not sure how a strong jet of water would affect the helicopter, especially since it might turn and twist arround rather freely if suspended from a helicopter.
Also, I am not sure what you mean with gravity. Water pressure from gravity only works if the water is coming from a source located high enough above the area, e.g. a mountain or a water tower. If the helicopters have to fly higher than the water tower, then you wont get enough pressure to get the water all the way up the hose.
That was my concern.
In any case these water hoses are rather stiff when under pressure. I have never seen a helicopter carry arround a water hose, so I am not sure that this can work as you imagine it.
this one would be limited by payload weight ... gotta admit that it would have a lot more control over where the water went.Hoses can be pretty long.
My question here is, do they really know precisely where the water needs to go? I mean reactor 3 looks like giant pile of scrap, it would take a plant operator who knows where to put the water to direct the pilot to position the hose, not sure they have luxury of time sitting above a glowing pile figuring out where the water should be going ...
... just hose the whole thing down with a fireship and buy some time seems best chance of intermediate success, imho of course ... or both options, helicopter precision douche irrigation and fireship spray dousing
Skip,Skipjack wrote:Well, I see people struggling to control fire water hoses all the time.
Heck, the mythbusters made a car hover on the water jets coming from a bunch of them.
That is why I am asking. I am not sure how a strong jet of water would affect the helicopter, especially since it might turn and twist arround rather freely if suspended from a helicopter.
Also, I am not sure what you mean with gravity. Water pressure from gravity only works if the water is coming from a source located high enough above the area, e.g. a mountain or a water tower. If the helicopters have to fly higher than the water tower, then you wont get enough pressure to get the water all the way up the hose.
That was my concern.
In any case these water hoses are rather stiff when under pressure. I have never seen a helicopter carry arround a water hose, so I am not sure that this can work as you imagine it.
Kite meant that the dump bags/buckets under the helocopter use a hose or funnel type arrangement to help direct the water, vice the large big splash method when they dump the whole thing at once.