I can't remember if it was this thread or the one in News, but someone asked about the Banana Equivalent Dose (BED) ...
I saw on CNN a few minutes ago that they are seeing 400 μSv per hour, so that appears to be approximately 4000 bananas (per hour).
Nuclear Reactors Hit By Earthquake In Japan
Nuclear industry never really "got it" ... imho. Why don't they have huge water cannons on site in case of fire or back-up cooling anyway? Petro-chem industry it is standard. When you are dealing with volatile materials make sure you got plenty of water options on hand, just basics, but the boffins never went down the engineering, get it done road ... always two levels too complicated and abstracted to actually be usefully safe.
This was the petrochem plant that got hit by the same quake/tsunami. On the day after the quake, the fire was out.
You've got to meet a threat with a proportional response ... riot water cannons? plugs that don't fit, it's just a joke.
This was the petrochem plant that got hit by the same quake/tsunami. On the day after the quake, the fire was out.
You've got to meet a threat with a proportional response ... riot water cannons? plugs that don't fit, it's just a joke.
Last edited by icarus on Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
And 300 workers dead...icarus wrote:Nuclear industry never really "got it" ... imho. Why don't they have huge water cannons on site in case of fire or back-up cooling anyway? Petro-chem industry it is standard. When you are dealing with volatile materials make sure you got plenty of water options on hand, just basics, but the boffins never went down the engineering, get it done road ... always two levels too complicated and abstracted to actually be usefully safe.
This was the petrochem plant that got hit by the same quake/tsunami. On the day after the quake, the fire was out.
Why should they. They have learned form the Masters, US. Storing spent fuel on site is what we do. Why not them?choff wrote:Hopefully TEPCO has an alternate spent fuel storage site and isn't just storing old rods in the pool on the cheap.
Re putting out the chemical plant... perhaps they have desided correctly to take care of the worst problems first. Some chem plants have the capability to kill THOUSANDS in the blink of an eye. I figure it is good and proper to take care of that first and only then to turn ones eye on the lesser issues.
Well, there continues to be reports of the #3 holding pool being there (albeit sans water) and that rods are in it:ladajo wrote:When I mentioned the refuel, I was thinking the last refuel. The longer ago it was, the less likely Spent fuel is on hand in the handling pools.
The dousing is aimed at cooling the Unit 3 reactor, as well as replenishing water in that unit's cooling pool, where used fuel rods are stored, Toyama said. The plant's owner, Tokyo Electric Power Co. (TEPCO), said earlier that pool was nearly empty, which would cause the rods to overheat and emit even more radiation.
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Or just possibly the chemical plant had less than one thousandth the potential energy that the nuclear plant did; thus it was easier to put out.KitemanSA wrote:Re putting out the chemical plant... perhaps they have desided correctly to take care of the worst problems first.
Some light reading material: Half Way To Anywhere, The Rocket Company, Space Technology, The High Fronter, Of Wolves And Men, Light On Shattered Water, The Ultimate Weapon, any Janes Guide, GURPS Bio-Tech, ALIENS Technical Manual, The God Delusion.
Yes, good point. They were trying to control a thousand times more energy and they didn't have systems that were even a tenth of the control power what the petrochem guys have on hand to deal with their accidents.Or just possibly the chemical plant had less than one thousandth the potential energy that the nuclear plant did; thus it was easier to put out.
Proportionate response is sadly lacking.
Operation Garden Hose
and
Operation Extension Cord
are now under way, never fear, everything will be fine.
If you're going to try to tame a beast make sure you have plenty of whips and ropes on hand. PR spin, hopes and prayer doesn't go the distance when the laws of physics make themselves apparent.
I think that saying the refinery/ petroleum storage facility had a thousand times less potential energy is misleading. What is important here is how much thermal energy per unit of time was involved. I'm sure that at it's height the petrolium fires were putting out more heat than the shut down nuclear plants combined.
The differences are that most of the heat in the petrolium fire was immediatly dispersing as the fireball heat left the immediate area. The nuclear fuel of necessity is contained in tight spaces* and as a result the insulation values are much better- there is no place for the heat to go, so things continue to heat up. This is much like tipping a space heater over on it's face. You lose the ability to disperse the heat and bad things happen. A space heater can have several settings, and if it is tipped over it automatically shuts off. The nuclear reactor has two settings (Fission, and decay heat settings), but the 'low power' setting cannot be turned off, so if active cooling is disrupted, the heat builds.
In the petroleum fire, the heat is often too hot to extinguish with water- the water vaporizes before it reaches the fire. The goal is to keep vulnerable nearby structures cool and wait for the fire to burn out (it also helps if you can pump some of the waiting fuel away) The difference with the nuclear plant is that it takes weeks to months for that residual fuel (decay products) to burn up.
* I'm wonder if an isolated spent fuel rod (after a couple of days) would heat to melting / fire conditions if cooled only by air convection. Depending on how closely the rods were packed together would then determine how much additional active cooling would be needed.
Dan Tibbets
The differences are that most of the heat in the petrolium fire was immediatly dispersing as the fireball heat left the immediate area. The nuclear fuel of necessity is contained in tight spaces* and as a result the insulation values are much better- there is no place for the heat to go, so things continue to heat up. This is much like tipping a space heater over on it's face. You lose the ability to disperse the heat and bad things happen. A space heater can have several settings, and if it is tipped over it automatically shuts off. The nuclear reactor has two settings (Fission, and decay heat settings), but the 'low power' setting cannot be turned off, so if active cooling is disrupted, the heat builds.
In the petroleum fire, the heat is often too hot to extinguish with water- the water vaporizes before it reaches the fire. The goal is to keep vulnerable nearby structures cool and wait for the fire to burn out (it also helps if you can pump some of the waiting fuel away) The difference with the nuclear plant is that it takes weeks to months for that residual fuel (decay products) to burn up.
* I'm wonder if an isolated spent fuel rod (after a couple of days) would heat to melting / fire conditions if cooled only by air convection. Depending on how closely the rods were packed together would then determine how much additional active cooling would be needed.
Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.
What really bothers me is that nobody has brought in ships like that yet. They have had days to do that. Also they are using helicopters to spray water on the reactors. Why arent they using the much larger fire fighting planes that they use for forrest fires?
As someone pointed out, only very little of the water is actually going where it should. The larger loads from the planes should be much more effective, one would think.
As someone pointed out, only very little of the water is actually going where it should. The larger loads from the planes should be much more effective, one would think.
You wanna know why? 'cause they never believed that they would need them like they do right now ... it has never occurred to them to have big ass fire ships waiting in the harbour, like the petrochem guys do as a matter of course.What really bothers me is that nobody has brought in ships like that yet.
Get the ships in there and put the darn thing out, stop messing around ... make a small mess now to stop a big mess later.
It's basically just a fire that you can't see the flame and it needs the heat taken away, it is not rocket science.
What they were trying with the helicopters is a precision dump, to get water in the pools. They couldn't get the precision needed. A massive plane load would have been the wrong direction.
What they need is a long hose with a directable noozle at the end of the dump bag. The direction provided by RC directed electrical propellers. So: helicopter, big water storage bag, long hose, relatively heavy collar with electrical propeller blades (3? 4?) facing out controlled by RC with a camera for control. Total construction time, 1 hour?
What they need is a long hose with a directable noozle at the end of the dump bag. The direction provided by RC directed electrical propellers. So: helicopter, big water storage bag, long hose, relatively heavy collar with electrical propeller blades (3? 4?) facing out controlled by RC with a camera for control. Total construction time, 1 hour?
You've fallen into the same trap. It is very simple, they need some really big fire hoses cause they got a really big fire and lots of heat.
If they pour enough water at the whole reactor complex, the cooling pools will fill up anyway. So what if some radiation drains into the harbour?, better than going up into the sky and carried to god only knows where.
Stop messing around and get to grips with the scales involved and the problem will be dealt with.
If they pour enough water at the whole reactor complex, the cooling pools will fill up anyway. So what if some radiation drains into the harbour?, better than going up into the sky and carried to god only knows where.
Stop messing around and get to grips with the scales involved and the problem will be dealt with.