Kid's Pot Use Up

[Netmaker]

No, Diogenes, my point is not based on any assumption that no harm will come from the legalization of pot.

I expect there will be harm from the legalization of pot for those individuals who consume it.

However, I expect there will be a much, much greater reduction in harm from pot's legalization as compared to any increase.

The harm to all US citizens for the costs of policing, investigating, trying and imprisoning pot related "criminals".

The harm to us when those criminals convicted on non-violent pot charges become trained and inured to violence while in prison.

The harm to people and the environment of spraying herbicides on hemp plants

The harm of innocent people being threatened or killed in their homes by overly aggressive and militaristic police forces.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berwyn_Hei ... _drug_raid

BTW, I went to high school in the area this occurred in.

The harm of coverups that occur by police forces using these tactics and making mistakes leading to a lack of respect for police forces

The harm of subsidizing narcotics gangs and organizations to the point that they blatantly carry automatic weapons in Mexico, kill in broad daylight, own the governments of whole provinces (equivalent to a US State), have corrupted practically the whole of the Mexican police forces and significant parts of their army.

The harm of having a failed state, with a huge porous border directly next door that could provide terrorists with save havens, training bases and easy access into the US. Particularly close to the critical oil and port facilities of Texas and Louisiana.

This is the harm I wish to avoid or reduce.

In those countries that have decriminalized pot they have not seen an increase in the use of harder drugs.

If, by chance or choice, the decriminalization of pot did lead to the same for harder drugs then so what? That market would come out in the open. Users would be in a much better position to seek and obtain treatment for their addiction(s). For drugs that are taken by needle it would lead to a reduced risk for the spread of disease.

Finally, on what grounds do you base the idea that decriminalizing harder drugs would cost society as much as the US civil war? Do you really believe that 600,000+ more people would die as did then or that we would spend more than the $30 billion dollars we've already spent on the "war on drugs"?

[MSimon]

more than the $30 billion dollars we've already spent on the "war on drugs"?

If you meant yearly spending you are in the ball park. Totals for the last 40 years run to over a $trillion with the bulk of that spent in the last 20 years.

And you forgot to mention financing terrorists. A Hezzie Bank in Lebanon has been implicated.

Warning bells began ringing when intelligence agencies started noticing Lebanese Shiites working for South American drug cartels. However, one of the biggest breakthroughs in the pursuit of evidence against Hezbollah and its connections with the LCB came in 2007 when Chekri Mahmoud Harb, a Lebanese middleman working with a Colombian cartel, revealed his Hezbollah connections to an undercover agent.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,15612492,00.html

[Netmaker]

The source for the $30 billion/year figure I saw wasn't exactly clear whether that was in total or annual. However it did give breakdowns in annual figures for a billion here, a billion there but nothing adding up to 30 bil.

However, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if we were spending $30 billion on an annual basis.

I did mention narco-terrorists in my original post. Plus the extensive impact on the Mexican state by these groups. Perhaps some people are more ready to accept that there is a threat if Islamic terrorists are involved.

So in that spirit, we have the funding of the Taliban and other assorted Afghani terrorists (Haqqani network) through the opium trade where I believe they supply a large portion (maybe 50+%) of the world's opium used in heroin production, if not the actual heroin itself.

I'd speculate that the Pakistani ISI skims some of the proceeds from that as a transit tax and in turn uses it to fund their terrorist operations in India.

I wonder how many American lives and billions of dollars would have been saved if we legalized hard drugs or at least bought the entire Afghani opium crop on an annual basis.

Still, Mexico is closer to home. Had we legalized pot and invested in Mexico instead of China, the world would be a much, much different place now.

[Diogenes]

No, Diogenes, my point is not based on any assumption that no harm will come from the legalization of pot.

I expect there will be harm from the legalization of pot for those individuals who consume it.

However, I expect there will be a much, much greater reduction in harm from pot's legalization as compared to any increase.

The harm to all US citizens for the costs of policing, investigating, trying and imprisoning pot related "criminals".

The harm to us when those criminals convicted on non-violent pot charges become trained and inured to violence while in prison.

The harm to people and the environment of spraying herbicides on hemp plants

The harm of innocent people being threatened or killed in their homes by overly aggressive and militaristic police forces.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berwyn_Hei ... _drug_raid

BTW, I went to high school in the area this occurred in.

The harm of coverups that occur by police forces using these tactics and making mistakes leading to a lack of respect for police forces

The harm of subsidizing narcotics gangs and organizations to the point that they blatantly carry automatic weapons in Mexico, kill in broad daylight, own the governments of whole provinces (equivalent to a US State), have corrupted practically the whole of the Mexican police forces and significant parts of their army.

The harm of having a failed state, with a huge porous border directly next door that could provide terrorists with save havens, training bases and easy access into the US. Particularly close to the critical oil and port facilities of Texas and Louisiana.

This is the harm I wish to avoid or reduce.

In those countries that have decriminalized pot they have not seen an increase in the use of harder drugs.

If, by chance or choice, the decriminalization of pot did lead to the same for harder drugs then so what? That market would come out in the open. Users would be in a much better position to seek and obtain treatment for their addiction(s). For drugs that are taken by needle it would lead to a reduced risk for the spread of disease.

Finally, on what grounds do you base the idea that decriminalizing harder drugs would cost society as much as the US civil war? Do you really believe that 600,000+ more people would die as did then or that we would spend more than the $30 billion dollars we've already spent on the "war on drugs"?

600,000+? No, the losses wouldn't be anywhere near that. I would guess more like Tens of millions, perhaps even a hundred million.

I begin to think it is simply not possible to get through to any of you believers. The real world example of China makes not the slightest dent upon the religious fervor with which some grip this notion, and I suspect that you people will have to learn, (as did those who embraced communism) the folly of your theory by having the rest of us suffer from the implementation of it.

[choff]

Netmaker, if you haven't already, checkout madcowprod.com or google Daniel Hopsiker. The corruption runs a lot deeper than you or Diogenes might care to admit.

[Diogenes]

more than the $30 billion dollars we've already spent on the "war on drugs"?

If you meant yearly spending you are in the ball park. Totals for the last 40 years run to over a $trillion with the bulk of that spent in the last 20 years.

And you forgot to mention financing terrorists. A Hezzie Bank in Lebanon has been implicated.

Warning bells began ringing when intelligence agencies started noticing Lebanese Shiites working for South American drug cartels. However, one of the biggest breakthroughs in the pursuit of evidence against Hezbollah and its connections with the LCB came in 2007 when Chekri Mahmoud Harb, a Lebanese middleman working with a Colombian cartel, revealed his Hezbollah connections to an undercover agent.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,15612492,00.html

Till I hear you spending as much time criticizing THIS EXPENDITURE as you do the much smaller WOD spending, I'm not going to regard your fiscal concerns as genuine on the issue.


http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/28 ... vid-french

[KitemanSA]

600,000+? No, the losses wouldn't be anywhere near that. I would guess more like Tens of millions, perhaps even a hundred million.

D, your nightmare is just that, a bad dream. It has no connection to reality. NO modern case supports you contention. ALL modern cases refute it completely. You have totally missed the REAL point about the China situation. (Hint: we are not the serfs (heck, practically slaves) that the chinese peasentry were.)

Please wake up.

[Netmaker]

@Choff - Not sure why you would think I wouldn't accept that that level of corruption exists given that I've already pointed out the huge level of corruption in the Mexican government. It wouldn't surprise me in the least.

@Diogenes - you want to point out the harm that will occur to individuals with drug legalization. I'm aware of that, really, I am. I was already aware of the history of Chinese opium dens. As a teenager, my sister dated, was impregnated by and ultimately married a small time drug dealer. As an adult the older of my two step-daughters was dating a drug dealer at the time I met my wife to be. A SWAT team had already raided their house with automatic weapons. The younger step-daughter had been an alcoholic since age 10 and had was experimenting with hard drugs not long after I married her mother. So I have significant direct experience with that. Additionally I have had my own addictions none of them drug, alcohol or tobacco related so I personally know how they can destroy your life and what it takes to break an addiction.

Now, Diogenes, can you contemplate what the impact would be if the US Government were to be corrupted by drug lords to the point that it failed? Consider just the world wide impact of interruptions of our agriculture production and shipment due to turf wars. Mass starvation, migration and world wide wars would ensue.

[MSimon]

Till I hear you spending as much time criticizing THIS EXPENDITURE

So you find that it is difficult to support financing criminals and terrorists so you want to change the subject?

How transparent.

[MSimon]

@Choff - Not sure why you would think I wouldn't accept that that level of corruption exists given that I've already pointed out the huge level of corruption in the Mexican government. It wouldn't surprise me in the least.

@Diogenes - you want to point out the harm that will occur to individuals with drug legalization. I'm aware of that, really, I am. I was already aware of the history of Chinese opium dens. As a teenager, my sister dated, was impregnated by and ultimately married a small time drug dealer. As an adult the older of my two step-daughters was dating a drug dealer at the time I met my wife to be. A SWAT team had already raided their house with automatic weapons. The younger step-daughter had been an alcoholic since age 10 and had was experimenting with hard drugs not long after I married her mother. So I have significant direct experience with that. Additionally I have had my own addictions none of them drug, alcohol or tobacco related so I personally know how they can destroy your life and what it takes to break an addiction.

Now, Diogenes, can you contemplate what the impact would be if the US Government were to be corrupted by drug lords to the point that it failed? Consider just the world wide impact of interruptions of our agriculture production and shipment due to turf wars. Mass starvation, migration and world wide wars would ensue.

"The Latin American drug cartels have stretched their tentacles much deeper into our lives than most people believe. It's possible they are calling the shots at all levels of government." - William Colby, former CIA Director, 1995

The government is already corrupted. The question is - how close are we to failure.

[MSimon]

For the number to be in the 100s of millions in the US D you are going to have to explain why the addiction rate will rise from 10% of those trying those drugs to 100%.

Plus you are going to have to explain how you will make sure that every member of the population tries those drugs.

Say - are you going to start pounding smack when it is legalized? If you say yes I can understand your fears. I must say though - if legality is the only thing holding you back - I feel very sorry for you.

[choff]

Basically the war on drugs is more about maintaining a monopoly by using the powers of the government to elimanate competition.

[Diogenes]

600,000+? No, the losses wouldn't be anywhere near that. I would guess more like Tens of millions, perhaps even a hundred million.

D, your nightmare is just that, a bad dream. It has no connection to reality. NO modern case supports you contention. ALL modern cases refute it completely. You have totally missed the REAL point about the China situation. (Hint: we are not the serfs (heck, practically slaves) that the chinese peasentry were.)

Please wake up.

I do not believe addictive chemical substances are less addictive under different societal structures. The operative characteristic of addiction is human biochemistry. Evolution might eventually solve the problem, but it would take multiple generations to actually put a dent in it. (The survivors would show a pronounced insensitivity to the addictive substance.)

[Diogenes]

@Choff - Not sure why you would think I wouldn't accept that that level of corruption exists given that I've already pointed out the huge level of corruption in the Mexican government. It wouldn't surprise me in the least.

@Diogenes - you want to point out the harm that will occur to individuals with drug legalization. I'm aware of that, really, I am. I was already aware of the history of Chinese opium dens. As a teenager, my sister dated, was impregnated by and ultimately married a small time drug dealer. As an adult the older of my two step-daughters was dating a drug dealer at the time I met my wife to be. A SWAT team had already raided their house with automatic weapons. The younger step-daughter had been an alcoholic since age 10 and had was experimenting with hard drugs not long after I married her mother. So I have significant direct experience with that. Additionally I have had my own addictions none of them drug, alcohol or tobacco related so I personally know how they can destroy your life and what it takes to break an addiction.

Now, Diogenes, can you contemplate what the impact would be if the US Government were to be corrupted by drug lords to the point that it failed? Consider just the world wide impact of interruptions of our agriculture production and shipment due to turf wars. Mass starvation, migration and world wide wars would ensue.

I suspect that we are currently dealing with a large amount of corruption in our government which can be traced to the influence of Drug dealers and their money. We are also dealing with corruption from a myriad of other sources.

If you are familiar with crack heads, then you ought to know how easy it is for someone to become addicted and what they are willing to do to maintain access to their supply. Why anyone should want that spread further into the population I cannot comprehend.

[Diogenes]

Till I hear you spending as much time criticizing THIS EXPENDITURE

So you find that it is difficult to support financing criminals and terrorists so you want to change the subject?

How transparent.

I am pointing out that you are ever harping on the "COST" of the drug war, and every time I bring up the much more destructive and costly "War on Poverty" you simply ignore it.

My point is that you only care about money when it involves your idée fixe.