Putting companies out of business

Discuss life, the universe, and everything with other members of this site. Get to know your fellow polywell enthusiasts.

Moderators: tonybarry, MSimon

Diogenes
Posts: 6968
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Re: Putting companies out of business

Post by Diogenes »

rj40 wrote:
Diogenes wrote:
rj40 wrote:Should the US Government be funding something that would put companies out of business? If it works as hoped, Polywell would most likely put coal companies out of business. What is the constitutional authority for doing this? Even if unintended.

"Provide for the common defense." It's a Navy project you know.


As for putting Coal companies out of business, not immediately, and probably not at all. If it works, it may eventually cut into the business quite a lot, but I don't think it will totally stop it.

Technology such as this needs to be developed for it's benefits to the US and mankind in general. Time marches on, and businesses evolve to fit the new conditions. Some industries disappear, never to return. That is simply the way things are and always have been.
So the common defense is something that allows the government to develop something that might put existing businesses out of commission?


Yes. Unequivocally.

rj40 wrote: Is there anything else?
Pretty much anything which is a game changer. Teleportation would seriously hurt the trucking industry, but were such a thing possible, it would be absolutely necessary for someone to develop it.

It truly is not the governments responsibility to pick winners and losers in the free market. It is the responsibility of Government to defend the people from enemies within (such as criminals) and without.

You only look at one side of the coin. Those who lose. What about those who win? I would say far more people will win from low cost clean fusion than would lose.

Ivy Matt
Posts: 712
Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 6:43 am

Post by Ivy Matt »

chrismb wrote:Divide zero by 60 years, and that is the rate of progress.
Zero net joules is not the same as no progress.

Regarding the original post, the United States government participated in an attempt to put the railroad companies out of business back in 1903. It was a spectacular failure at first. (And let's not forget that the government is much more fully behind ITER in terms of money spent than it is behind WB-X.)

IntLibber
Posts: 747
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:28 pm

Post by IntLibber »

The government is already putting coal out of business. This spring, the EPA is going to delicense about 20% of the coal power plants in the country due to mercury emissions. They are using mercury regulations, drafted without congressional oversight, to achieve curbs in CO2 emission, again without congressional approval. So by the time polywell is capable of commercial operation, there will be hundreds of vacant coal power plants on the auction block waiting to be bought up on the cheap to have polywell systems installed.

rj40
Posts: 288
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:31 am
Location: Southern USA

Post by rj40 »

IntLibber wrote:The government is already putting coal out of business. This spring, the EPA is going to delicense about 20% of the coal power plants in the country due to mercury emissions. They are using mercury regulations, drafted without congressional oversight, to achieve curbs in CO2 emission, again without congressional approval. So by the time polywell is capable of commercial operation, there will be hundreds of vacant coal power plants on the auction block waiting to be bought up on the cheap to have polywell systems installed.
My question is, is it constitutional?

Does this come into play?
Article 1, Section 8 states:

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence **and general Welfare of the United States**; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States."

IntLibber
Posts: 747
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:28 pm

Post by IntLibber »

rj40 wrote:
IntLibber wrote:The government is already putting coal out of business. This spring, the EPA is going to delicense about 20% of the coal power plants in the country due to mercury emissions. They are using mercury regulations, drafted without congressional oversight, to achieve curbs in CO2 emission, again without congressional approval. So by the time polywell is capable of commercial operation, there will be hundreds of vacant coal power plants on the auction block waiting to be bought up on the cheap to have polywell systems installed.
My question is, is it constitutional?

Does this come into play?
Article 1, Section 8 states:

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence **and general Welfare of the United States**; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States."
Mercury is a poison. This isn't even scientifically disputable. Different forms of mercury compounds are more toxic than others.

I know of one woman, the dean of the chemistry dept at Dartmouth College, who, while wearing rubber gloves, spilled a single drop of methyl-mercury on a glove. Problem is the glove wasn't rated to protect against this compound, and the nanoscopic amount that leaked through the rubber glove and through her skin, rotted her brain and killed her within a few months.

In other forms, like the liquid form used to refine gold, is often handled by hand in 3rd world countries by people panning nanogold out of rich muds and clays. This causes a number of maladies and shortens life, but is not immediately fatal.

Similarly, top predators in the ecosystem develop high concentrations of mercury in their bodies from simply being in the top of the food chain if the ecology has mercury compounds existing in it. Swordfish, tuna, mackerel, salmon and other high level species in the oceans see this sort of concentration, but there is dispute about how concentrated it gets and how harmful it can be. Actor Jeremy Piven claims his doctors attributed an illness he suffered in the last decade to eating too much canned tuna leading to mercury poisoning.

Mercury is found in coal, as are other heavy metals, some of which are radioactive, but unlike those other compounds, it is very hard to scrub mercury fumes from the exhaust gases compared to scrubbing other heavy metal fly ash simply because mercury's boiling point is so low.

However, the average person is likely at greater risk from mercury from handling compact fluorescent light bulbs than from being downwind from a coal plant.

The current changes in mercury regulation are not legislated, they have been court ordered due to a suit about the mercury issue against coal power companies. Any coal plant that does not have the proper, but expensive, mercury scrubbing technology, and is meeting new mercury emissions targets, installed by May 1 will be shut down. This amounts to 20% of the current coal fired power generation capacity in the US.

The Obama administration is intentionally using this level of regulation to meet their CO2 emissions reduction goals despite not having congressional approval of any CO2 regulation scheme. This isn't a conspiracy theory either, Carol Browner has openly stated that this is the goal.

As a libertarian, I consider pollution to be a negative externalities that entities impose on others without compensation. A libertarian business is a zero emissions business that pays to have all of its pollutants properly disposed of.

I do NOT consider C02 a pollutant. It is plant food. Mercury, however, IS a pollutant and deserves to be regulated, but government should focus on the greater risk factors, number one being compact fluorescent light bulbs.

chrismb
Posts: 3161
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:00 pm

Post by chrismb »

IntLibber wrote:Mercury is a poison. This isn't even scientifically disputable.
Err... it's not only beyond dispute in science, I don't think it's even right! The compounds mercury forms in are typically very poisonous. Elemental mercury may mechanically get into places that can cause harm, but that doesn't make it toxic.

IntLibber wrote:Different forms of mercury compounds are more toxic than others.
ahh! in exactly the same way that there are many compounds with hydrogen and oxygen in that are more or less poisonous than each other, and therefore water is poisonous?

IntLibber
Posts: 747
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:28 pm

Post by IntLibber »

chrismb wrote:
IntLibber wrote:Mercury is a poison. This isn't even scientifically disputable.
Err... it's not only beyond dispute in science, I don't think it's even right! The compounds mercury forms in are typically very poisonous. Elemental mercury may mechanically get into places that can cause harm, but that doesn't make it toxic.

IntLibber wrote:Different forms of mercury compounds are more toxic than others.
ahh! in exactly the same way that there are many compounds with hydrogen and oxygen in that are more or less poisonous than each other, and therefore water is poisonous?
Not quite. There are few mercury compounds which are NOT toxic to humans, and the few that are nontoxic are only so because they are nonsoluble in the human body, like Hg(I)Cl. Any time mercury is able to get free, it is toxic. This is not the case with hydrogen or oxygen.

KitemanSA
Posts: 6179
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA

Post by KitemanSA »

rj40 wrote: My question is, is it constitutional?

Does this come into play?
Article 1, Section 8 states:

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence **and general Welfare of the United States**; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States."
Wow. What a wild swing in background concepts. First it was "support technologies that might drive other businesses out" to now "put them specifically out of business by edict". Two TOTALLY different issues. "Yes" to the first and "that all depends on who last bribed the supremes" to the second! :lol: :lol: :wink:

rj40
Posts: 288
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:31 am
Location: Southern USA

Post by rj40 »

KitemanSA,
I actually brought it up earlier.

rj40 wrote:So there are constitutional (in the US anyway) ways that government can do things that would end up hurting businesses?

1. If it is in the interest of national defense
2. Anything else?
Just making small talk. I remember reading about the controversy with the TVA back in the 1930's and this came to mind.

IntLibber
Posts: 747
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:28 pm

Post by IntLibber »

rj40 wrote:KitemanSA,
I actually brought it up earlier.

rj40 wrote:So there are constitutional (in the US anyway) ways that government can do things that would end up hurting businesses?

1. If it is in the interest of national defense
2. Anything else?
Just making small talk. I remember reading about the controversy with the TVA back in the 1930's and this came to mind.
Right. The court has said "the constitution is not a suicide pact". This applies in many ways, one of which being that a business engaged in destruction of the nations environment or the general health of the populace due to their introduction of deadly toxins into the food chain is a domestic enemy that presents a clear and present danger to the public.

A business that is engaged in raining mercury in dust and rain upon the land and waterways and fisheries, resulting in a food chain poisoned by mercury, is engaged in commerce that is a danger to the nation and should be stopped. Most businesses do not intentionally poison people. It is bad for business, but often when the boundary between harm and good is blurry, unscrupulous corporate officers put the quarterly dividend ahead of both the public good and their own companys and stockholders long term rational self interest.

KitemanSA
Posts: 6179
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA

Post by KitemanSA »

IntLibber wrote: Right. The court has said "the constitution is not a suicide pact". This applies in many ways, one of which being that a business engaged in destruction of the nations environment or the general health of the populace due to their introduction of deadly toxins into the food chain is a domestic enemy that presents a clear and present danger to the public.

A business that is engaged in raining mercury in dust and rain upon the land and waterways and fisheries, resulting in a food chain poisoned by mercury, is engaged in commerce that is a danger to the nation and should be stopped.
Then the proper response is "By time T, reduce to X level, demonstrate that the current level is ok, or shut down". The simple statement "shut down by T" is not acceptable. If it is so bad, "shut down NOW" may be, but if it is ok to keep going for T-Now days, shouldn't they have the same amount of time to change the equation?

hanelyp
Posts: 2261
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:50 pm

Post by hanelyp »

I see a flaw in the comparison between the polywell putting coal out of business vs. taxes and regulation. The former is a side effect of introducing a better technology into the market. The latter raises the cost of doing business. Both may greatly reduce the coal industry, but they are worlds apart so far as the rest of the market is concerned.

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

Most businesses do not intentionally poison people.
Unless the government forces the production of a toxic product. At which point the company(s) involved will be hailed as saviors of mankind.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Post Reply