Suicide is painless...

[Diogenes]

Ran across this earlier today.

Sad Russian executes himself with homemade guillotine

MOSCOW - A RUSSIAN engineer killed himself using a guillotine he constructed in the bedroom of his home near Moscow, a report said on Friday.

The man's mother said her son had shut himself in his bedroom for days, saying he wanted to build a cupboard, according to the report in the Tvoi Den daily, which also published photographs and sketches of the contraption.

His body was found jammed in the 'strange construction' which used a metal plate - attached to a plank and weighted with large water bottles - as a blade.

The man, a divorcee in his forties, lay on the floor beneath and triggered the guillotine himself, the report said.

He had reportedly suffered psychiatric problems for more than 20 years, the report added. -- AFP

How could a species evolve suicide? I have my own crazy crackpot theories, but it would be interesting to hear what other people think.

[kcdodd]

Yes, evolution of suicide is interesting.

http://news.discovery.com/animals/anima ... avior.html

[Diogenes]

Yes, evolution of suicide is interesting.

http://news.discovery.com/animals/anima ... avior.html

I followed the link hoping to find a bit of enlightenment but was disappointed. The article mentions only one example, and then asserts suicide. The behavior of the animal in question does not sound like a suicide to me, though the behavior caused the animals death.

There is an example in nature of infestation with parasites that cause creatures to drown themselves. This is somehow the result of the parasites secreting chemicals that mimic an organisms naturally occurring hormones, and somehow inexplicably convinces the creature to drown itself.

Suicide Grasshoppers Brainwashed by Parasite Worms
Scientists say hairworms, which live inside grasshoppers, pump the insects with a cocktail of chemicals that makes them commit suicide by leaping into water. The parasites then swim away from their drowning hosts to continue their life cycle.

In addition to this example, there is the example of mice infected with a pathogen that causes them to seek out the odor of cat, especially their urine, and linger in that vicinity.

Behavioral changes

It has been found that the parasite has the ability to change the behaviour of its host: infected rats and mice are less fearful of cats—in fact, some of the infected rats seek out cat-urine-marked areas. This effect is advantageous to the parasite, which will be able to proliferate as a cat could eat the infected rat and then reproduce.[25] The mechanism for this change is not completely understood, but there is evidence that toxoplasmosis infection raises dopamine levels and concentrates in the amygdala in infected mice.[26]

Neither of these two examples known to me should be properly regarded as a "suicide" but rather examples of pathogenic mind control.

[Josh Cryer]

How could a species evolve suicide? I have my own crazy crackpot theories, but it would be interesting to hear what other people think.

Let's hear your crackpot theories. I wonder if you also wonder how we could have evolved homosexuality.

[kcdodd]

There is an example in nature of infestation with parasites that cause creatures to drown themselves. This is somehow the result of the parasites secreting chemicals that mimic an organisms naturally occurring hormones, and somehow inexplicably convinces the creature to drown itself.

Is there a case of such a parasite in dogs?

[KitemanSA]

There is an example in nature of infestation with parasites that cause creatures to drown themselves. This is somehow the result of the parasites secreting chemicals that mimic an organisms naturally occurring hormones, and somehow inexplicably convinces the creature to drown itself.

Lemmings?

[Diogenes]

How could a species evolve suicide? I have my own crazy crackpot theories, but it would be interesting to hear what other people think.

Let's hear your crackpot theories. I wonder if you also wonder how we could have evolved homosexuality.

Actually, it is a topic I have pondered often. I think we actually started discussing it somewhere on another thread. I actually have several dovetailing theories that seem to cover it.

As for discussing my theory on suicide, I want to wait and see if someone else has a better one. How am I ever going to learn something new if I don't consider ideas that originate from somewhere besides myself?

[Diogenes]

There is an example in nature of infestation with parasites that cause creatures to drown themselves. This is somehow the result of the parasites secreting chemicals that mimic an organisms naturally occurring hormones, and somehow inexplicably convinces the creature to drown itself.

Is there a case of such a parasite in dogs?

Not that I know of, but it took centuries before we realized that it occurred in crickets and grasshoppers. There may be. Many organic enzymes and hormones are common between species. ( or ones that are close enough to work.) Plants toxins are nothing but modified plant enzymes. The reason they work on animals is because they have molecular binding sites in the animals neural cells. Perhaps whatever chemicals the parasites secrete also will work on animals, and this unlucky dog just happened to be infected with these same parasites?

In any case, the description of the dogs behavior (while it resulted in the dogs death) does not make sense as a suicide, but makes more sense as a crazy dog. Surely the dog could have ended itself faster by running under a wagon or jumping off a cliff? Intentionally breathing water is painful and unpleasant, and regardless of ones intentions to kill oneself, the drowning reflex and physiology ought to take over and prevent it.
I mark this as a curious malady, not an intentional suicide.


The rate of occurrence also makes it an outlier.

[Diogenes]

There is an example in nature of infestation with parasites that cause creatures to drown themselves. This is somehow the result of the parasites secreting chemicals that mimic an organisms naturally occurring hormones, and somehow inexplicably convinces the creature to drown itself.

Lemmings?

That's a myth. One which was promoted by Walt Disney making a movie depicting it. Apparently lemmings were none to keen to run off a cliff, so the Disney crew had to force them off!

The migration sequence was filmed by placing the lemmings on a spinning turntable that was covered with snow, and then shooting it from many different angles. The cliff-death-plunge sequence was done by herding the lemmings over a small cliff into a river. It's easy to understand why the filmmakers did this - wild animals are notoriously uncooperative, and a migration-of-doom followed by a cliff-of-death sequence is far more dramatic to show than the lemmings' self-implemented population-density management plan.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/ ... 081903.htm

[kcdodd]

Well, animals do kill themselves. You are apparently not trying to deny that. You're just arguing why it did. You would rather believe in some unknown parasite. Or the dog was just "crazy". Of course, suicide tends to accompany "crazy" in humans too.

If an animal kills itself because it is severely hurt, then you may just say it is instinct to benefit the larger group. Or perhaps just in order to relieve the immediate pain. I have the feeling you just don't believe in animal suicide.

However, the behaviour is there nevertheless.

[Diogenes]

Well, animals do kill themselves. You are apparently not trying to deny that. You're just arguing why it did. You would rather believe in some unknown parasite. Or the dog was just "crazy". Of course, suicide tends to accompany "crazy" in humans too.

If an animal kills itself because it is severely hurt, then you may just say it is instinct to benefit the larger group. Or perhaps just in order to relieve the immediate pain. I have the feeling you just don't believe in animal suicide.

However, the behaviour is there nevertheless.

I have actually not heard of an example of animal suicide that seems clear cut. With that in mind, it's hard to believe in something with such a dearth of examples.

As Thomas Jefferson said about meteors, "I would rather believe that two Yankee professors would lie, than that rocks would fall from the sky. "


His point was that it was so rare and inexplicable that it was far more likely that the two professors which reported it were just lying.


I do know about animals chewing their legs off in attempts to get out of traps. Often the animal bleeds to death. I don't consider that to be an animal suicide, I consider that to be a case of the animal enduring incredible pain in an attempt to free itself and thereby prevent it's death.


The funny thing is, if my theories on the evolutionary purpose of suicide is correct, then animals OUGHT to commit suicide, but perhaps there are few to none recorded examples of it because it's much more difficult for an animal to kill itself than it is for a human?

It has been theorized that Whales beaching themselves is an example of animal suicide, but their motivation in doing so is still considered to be unknown.

[kcdodd]

Yes, evidence would be hard to come even in the best circumstances. We cannot exactly open a suicide hotline for animals. A pathological experiment could be conducted by trying to drive animals to suicide and give them the means to do it. But I would not advocate doing that. I think there is evidence that self destructive behaviour exists in nature. You may argue whether it is intention or instinct. But instinct would be more damaging because even instinct can be enhanced by intention when applied to humans. For instance, we may have parental instincts. But how we express that in what we buy, doctors we use, etc can vary by how we model it in our brain. In other words, things in nature may simply defends and feed their young. We go an extra mile, but for the same underlying reason.

another read I googled up: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... rticle.pdf