The Reality Of Progressivism

[Jccarlton]

From Ludwig Von Mises As true now as it was then:
The champions of socialism call themselves progressives, but they recommend a system which is characterized by rigid observance of routine and by a resistance to every kind of improvement. They call themselves liberals, but they are intent upon abolishing liberty. They call themselves democrats, but they yearn for dictatorship. They call themselves revolutionaries, but they want to make the government omnipotent. They promise the blessings of the Garden of Eden, but they plan to transform the world into a gigantic post office. Every man but one a subordinate clerk in a bureau. What an alluring utopia! What a noble cause to fight!
Read more: Bureaucracy by Ludwig von Mises (1944) Conclusion
http://mises.org/etexts/mises/bureaucra ... z0nM3N1rug

[kcdodd]

Why is polywell.org now a venting area for conservative ranting? And since when has the word progressive become a dirty word? Just because you are trying to make it synonymous with communist, or fascist, or some other dreaded word doesn't make it true, doesn't do anything for your position on real matters, and doesn't nullify the fact that many of the things we take for granted in the world are owed to the evil progressives. I think that all you, and the many media heads who are doing the same thing, are attempting is simply to define a new bad word and then stick it on the forehead of anyone you disagree with. It's an old trick with a new name.

Also, blogospheric postings like this, which have nothing to do with science, make me less likely to want to come to this site, which is unfortunate.

[Jccarlton]

Why is polywell.org now a venting area for conservative ranting? And since when has the word progressive become a dirty word? Just because you are trying to make it synonymous with communist, or fascist, or some other dreaded word doesn't make it true, doesn't do anything for your position on real matters, and doesn't nullify the fact that many of the things we take for granted in the world are owed to the evil progressives. I think that all you, and the many media heads who are doing the same thing, are attempting is simply to define a new bad word and then stick it on the forehead of anyone you disagree with. It's an old trick with a new name.

Also, blogospheric postings like this, which have nothing to do with science, make me less likely to want to come to this site, which is unfortunate.

I think that this covers the rules on posting in this forum:
This is the place for any "off topic" posts — discussion you want to have with fellow Talk-Polywell members, but which does not relate directly to polywell fusion.

As for rants, I'm not sure how quoting Ludwig Von Mises counts as a 'rant'. I would love to stop posting about this stuff. Unfortunately I love my country and liberty even more. If even one person pays attention and acts to change the train wreck that I see coming then I have succeeded in my goal. Right now we are heading to a place that history tells us over and over again does not end well. What our current President and his crew are doing sickens me. Nothing good comes from what they are doing. As for the things that Progressives did that we take for granted maybe they need to be reexamined. So much of the stuff they created tend to fall down around out ears and lay waste to the country. Looked at Detroit lately?

Science and technology advances do not happen in a vacuum. Events outside the sphere of interest can have large effects on the ongoing work. Science, as the global warming fraud has shown, can be misused for terrible ends. Indeed that is a Progressive specialty. Technologies will live and die on the economics that support them. No market, no fancy gadget. The fact is that Progressivism acts to stifle creativity and innovation. That's why Von Mise's quote is so apt.

[Betruger]

TL;DWR - The end doesn't justify the means.


The post directly above aside, this thread is pretty characteristic of what I reckon Kcdodd means. The general forum almost (key word there) reads like an RSS newsfeed. Articles linked to with little or no discussion of their topic or arguments. Just link and run which probably wouldn't be a problem at all if the forum users were uniformly in agreement with the (conservative) trend (except for the echo box effect), only that's not what the forum readers is made up of.

What needs to be done when proselytizing is trigger interest, either by challenging an opinion that the audience is sure enough of and that's concise enough to overcome initial friction (or break the ice, so to speak), or by playing push-over by baiting the dissenting audience into what seems to be a simple matter that turns out to be fairly complex -- but that's integrally and straight forwardly shown to lead to the initial (conservative in this case) assertion -- or some other constructive method.

You don't get to the bottom of a technical disagreement by slapping the other guy in the face with a wet trout, repeatedly. And there's a lack of skepticism in leading the question that way - in repeating a principle (lefties bad) without going through the motions that demonstrate and confirm (yet again) the principle.

[Jccarlton]

TL;DWR - The end doesn't justify the means.


The post directly above aside, this thread is pretty characteristic of what I reckon Kcdodd means. The general forum almost (key word there) reads like an RSS newsfeed. Articles linked to with little or no discussion of their topic or arguments. Just link and run which probably wouldn't be a problem at all if the forum users were uniformly in agreement with the (conservative) trend (except for the echo box effect), only that's not what the forum readers is made up of.

What needs to be done when proselytizing is trigger interest, either by challenging an opinion that the audience is sure enough of and that's concise enough to overcome initial friction (or break the ice, so to speak), or by playing push-over by baiting the dissenting audience into what seems to be a simple matter that turns out to be fairly complex -- but that's integrally and straight forwardly shown to lead to the initial (conservative in this case) assertion -- or some other constructive method.

You don't get to the bottom of a technical disagreement by slapping the other guy in the face with a wet trout, repeatedly. And there's a lack of skepticism in leading the question that way - in repeating a principle (lefties bad) without going through the motions that demonstrate and confirm (yet again) the principle.

You might ask Mr. Dodd about that. I went back over the posts of the last two weeks and I see very little ranting there. I've posted about monetary problems, linked to a WaPo article, Linked to a tax professional's blog who linked to a CNN article, An American thinker article about the author's experience with a terrorist attack, with my comment about the KGB connection. Then there is this thread, in which Mr. Dodd characterized a quote from Nobel prize winning economist Ludwig Von Mises as a "rant." Frankly Mr. Dodd is using Alinskyist tactics in an attempt to discredit me and what I say. He is trying to smear and silence me. If all I do is "conservative Rants" then nothing I post has any value. So nobody has to pay any attention to what I post. I don't know if Mr. Dodd is one of the Regime's new versions of the four minute men, sent out to discredit people like me or he's just an independent Obama zombie Progressivist who is unable to argue ideas and had to resort to name calling and smears rather than making a point. Frankly I don't care.

As to why I use short posts, rather than writing what I really want to, doing that makes me a moving target. You have to bob and weave a little. It's much harder to use Alinsky like tactics if you don't give them much time and material to attack. Look at what Mr. Dodd tried to do with that quote from Von Mises. They can call me names and have. Use a blog here and a quote there, post an article from a very credible source, Use all sorts of sources and credit everything and I become much harder to discredit. It's obvious that I make Mr. Dodd very unhappy. I've done this to progressives before. The more you link and the less you put in the post is material they don't have to attack you with. Fewer word forces them to actually read the links and much harder to make the argument about how bad a person you are, which people like Mr. Dodd just love to do. They can smear you, but can they smear you, the NYT, WSJ, American Thinker, some oil blog and a bunch of gov't statistics. I don't think so. That's what makes the internet so powerful. I am going to use it to play the game my way and not theirs.

[MSimon]

Looked at Detroit lately

Or California, or Illinois, or Greece, Portugal, Italy, Spain.

We don't even have to look at history. A close reading of current events will do.

As to "right wing politics". Engineers tend (in the range of 80% to 90%) to be on the libertarian right. With some of that number on the conservative right. About 10% to 20% of engineers believe in government "solutions". i.e. given the right laws and lots of (government) guns utopia (or at least much "better") can be achieved.

The problem is that bad law is harder to prune than bad companies.

So the deal is: if you don't want to deal with right wing politics it is best (in general) to avoid engineering forums.

[MSimon]

The general forum almost (key word there) reads like an RSS newsfeed. Articles linked to with little or no discussion of their topic or arguments.

I do the "link and run" all the time with technical topics. No complaints so far. Why that is unfair in General escapes me. Could it be that he links are saying things you don't wish to hear?

For most people the destruction of their political world view and an adoption of a competing world view is catastrophic to their personality not to mention having to get a whole new social network. I have done it 3 or 4 times in my lifetime and would do it again if I felt that my views did not conform to reality.

[Jccarlton]

The general forum almost (key word there) reads like an RSS newsfeed. Articles linked to with little or no discussion of their topic or arguments.

I do the "link and run" all the time with technical topics. No complaints so far. Why that is unfair in General escapes me. Could it be that he links are saying things you don't wish to hear?

For most people the destruction of their political world view and an adoption of a competing world view is catastrophic to their personality not to mention having to get a whole new social network. I have done it 3 or 4 times in my lifetime and would do it again if I felt that my views did not conform to reality.

Simon, I want to thank you for all the times you've used my stuff in your blog postings. It's just one reason that I know that all this is not pointless. Of course another reason is how progressives react to what I post.

[kcdodd]

I come to this website because it is related to plasma and fusion energy, and has typically been open to anyone to contribute.

I have no desire to debate your political discontent. I have given no background to my own political ideology, or stated any political topic to debate, and yet you have already labeled me a zombie progressive. You have simply continued to do what I have already accused you of; building up the word progressive as something to be looked down on, and then used it to try and bring down my own credibility. So, ask yourself who is really doing what here.

Maybe I am "a progressive", or maybe I'm not. I don't want to debate you, and I don't like your inflammatory posts filling up these forums. It makes everything else here look bad and less credible. If you want to debate how evil progressives are please do it somewhere else.

[MirariNefas]

So the deal is: if you don't want to deal with right wing politics it is best (in general) to avoid engineering forums.

Wait, why is this an engineering forum? Wouldn't it be more of a physics forum? Or, considering that the actual work on polywell is going on elsewhere, isn't it just a forum based on a generic interest in fusion?

[MirariNefas]

I have no desire to debate your political discontent.

Just ignore posts like this. I think the posters of these sorts of thing are annoying and offensive too, and sometimes that provokes me into saying something, but it's better to just let him rant. Fanatics are always like this; they believe in their points so thoroughly that they think respecting other veiwpoints is morally wrong. That's his right, and within a set of consistent principles, it is very logical. But take heart: progressives are in power right now. He's not shaping the world into a conservative nightmare, he's just shouting at the ether.

[MSimon]

So the deal is: if you don't want to deal with right wing politics it is best (in general) to avoid engineering forums.

Wait, why is this an engineering forum? Wouldn't it be more of a physics forum? Or, considering that the actual work on polywell is going on elsewhere, isn't it just a forum based on a generic interest in fusion?

True.

But there are a LOT of engineers attracted. And they have set the tone here since the inception.

May I suggest avoiding General if the information upsets you.

[MSimon]

Fanatics are always like this; they believe in their points so thoroughly that they think respecting other veiwpoints is morally wrong.

Well they are morally wrong. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is just as morally wrong if government does it as it is if a highwayman does it.

A government big enough to give you everything you want is strong enough to take everything you have - Thomas Jefferson

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." attributed to Geo. Washington

[MSimon]

The general forum almost (key word there) reads like an RSS newsfeed. Articles linked to with little or no discussion of their topic or arguments.

I do the "link and run" all the time with technical topics. No complaints so far. Why that is unfair in General escapes me. Could it be that he links are saying things you don't wish to hear?

For most people the destruction of their political world view and an adoption of a competing world view is catastrophic to their personality not to mention having to get a whole new social network. I have done it 3 or 4 times in my lifetime and would do it again if I felt that my views did not conform to reality.

Simon, I want to thank you for all the times you've used my stuff in your blog postings. It's just one reason that I know that all this is not pointless. Of course another reason is how progressives react to what I post.

Thank you. I am grateful for all you have done.

[Betruger]

The general forum almost (key word there) reads like an RSS newsfeed. Articles linked to with little or no discussion of their topic or arguments.

I do the "link and run" all the time with technical topics. No complaints so far. Why that is unfair in General escapes me. Could it be that he links are saying things you don't wish to hear?

I'm just trying to help keep things balanced. Overall I have no problem with right leaning stuff. Depending on the issues, I'm anywhere from center to very extreme right. I said it before and again now: I think politics is a waste of time. We are wasting our time with so much beating around the bush trying to find the least worse political configuration when it's all just interim crowd management till technology breaks scarcity and interdependence. After that point is when the real questions will be asked and addressed. That's when man will experience genuine growing pains.

In the mean time it's counter productive to alienate the people you wish to convert. They are all just homo sapiens. All that needs to be done is push the right button. The button that triggers "hands on ears shutdown mode" is not the right button.
.

I come to this website because it is related to plasma and fusion energy, and has typically been open to anyone to contribute.

I have no desire to debate your political discontent. I have given no background to my own political ideology, or stated any political topic to debate, and yet you have already labeled me a zombie progressive. You have simply continued to do what I have already accused you of; building up the word progressive as something to be looked down on, and then used it to try and bring down my own credibility. So, ask yourself who is really doing what here.

Maybe I am "a progressive", or maybe I'm not. I don't want to debate you, and I don't like your inflammatory posts filling up these forums. It makes everything else here look bad and less credible. If you want to debate how evil progressives are please do it somewhere else.

See what I mean? And again I'm not even under left leaning compulsions here. Put me in MSimon or another mod's shoes and I wouldn't restrict things any more either. Most I'd do is open a separate politics forum.

For most people the destruction of their political world view and an adoption of a competing world view is catastrophic to their personality not to mention having to get a whole new social network. I have done it 3 or 4 times in my lifetime and would do it again if I felt that my views did not conform to reality.

Yep. The prophet's crucified everytime. My advice to the prophets would be to reshape their rhetoric so that the other guy is triggered to come to the prophet's conclusions on his own. Plato's "midwife" method.

I guess that right there's the crux of my argument. JCCarlton or MSimon or anyone else - What beats the midwife method? Nothing that I've seen so far. I'm all ears.