Idaho Will Sue

[Skipjack]

The new rules as I've heard them allow people to abuse insurance companies such that offering medical insurance will no longer be a viable business. And medicine will be a far less desirable field of business as regulations pile and payments shrink. So expect to find far fewer insurers and doctors unless this monstrosity is struck down.

It is not the case here. Insurances all are living well and are making good money of private health insurances, which they are allowed to sell in addition to the government health insurance (people get better rooms and food in hospitals, additional rehab days and stuff like that). As an experiment, insurance companies in Austria are also allowed to replace the government option fully for some professions (like lawyers). That has been working very well for them also. My mother works at an insurance company and they are making good business from these offerings.
Medicine is still a desirable business here with more doctors and nurses per person than in the US. So no, all these predictions are not true. This is what you are affraid will happen and what certain lobbyists have been telling you will happen. Of course if you just blindly believe what everybody tells you...
I live in a country where none of this is the case.

[MSimon]

Disgruntled constituent or Reichstag Fire?

[Skipjack]

Disgruntled constituent or Reichstag Fire?

?????

[MSimon]

Anyway if the estimates are that about 2/3 of the uninsured will be insured with the plan (and thus paying into the healthcare system whereas they are not currently), that means those with insurance no longer paying so much to cover the uninsured. Meanwhile that choose to remain uninsured get the "great" deal that they can opt in at anytime. So both sides win, right?

And those uninsured will now be wanting services that they formerly passed on in order to get their "money's worth". You will have a step increase in demand and no step increase in provision. I'm sure that will work out really well.

Re: "great deal" - who pays for it?

[Skipjack]

Again, it works here. Why are you disregarding this fact? I dont get it.
In fact you could make it infinitely better than the system we have here, because you have the luxury of starting from scratch and looking at all the other systems in place, taking what works and watching out for what does not. Yet, you are clearly throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
YOU dont want it and therefore YOU will only look at the problems in other countries and disregard where it works. This is a very egotistical way of handling things. This is not what a politician that I would give my vote to would do.

[EricF]

Again, it works here. Why are you disregarding this fact? I dont get it.
In fact you could make it infinitely better than the system we have here, because you have the luxury of starting from scratch and looking at all the other systems in place, taking what works and watching out for what does not. Yet, you are clearly throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
YOU dont want it and therefore YOU will only look at the problems in other countries and disregard where it works. This is a very egotistical way of handling things. This is not what a politician that I would give my vote to would do.

I think you underestimate the ability of American citizens to frivalously abuse a system of entitelment into insolvency.

[Skipjack]

I think you underestimate the ability of American citizens to frivalously abuse a system of entitelment into insolvency.

Interesting theory. So according to your oppinion, the system would not work in the US, because US citizens would abuse it more than Austrian citizens would?
Maybe there should have to be a system in place that prevents that from happening? In Austria expensive procedures have to be signed off on by another doctor (who is employed by the health insurance agency), the Chef Arzt. This prevents doctors from pushing unnecessary, expensive treatments. Of course the patient is always free to pay for these out of his own pocket. An alternative to that is to have an additional, private insurace that covers therapies that are not covered by the public health insurance.
Before someone here shouts "Death panels!", all life saving and even potentially life saving treatments are covered by the public insurance. The private insurance gives you better beds in private clinics, private doctors and some alternative treatments and stuff.

[choff]

I was taught that the reason the Berlin wall was put up was because all the young E. Berliner's would go west for the well paying jobs while the old E. Berliner's stayed behind for the government pension. This created an untenable situation for the communists.

Could a similar situation be brewing in the U.S. People decide, "well I'm paying for this public system with my taxes anyway, why not take advantage of it and drop my private plan so I don't pay twice." Maybe I don't fully understand how its supposed to work, but what happens if instead of 30 million people suddenly their's 50 million more that switch over. Then the private insurer's lose profit and the government revenue from them.

[MSimon]

I was taught that the reason the Berlin wall was put up was because all the young E. Berliner's would go west for the well paying jobs while the old E. Berliner's stayed behind for the government pension. This created an untenable situation for the communists.

Could a similar situation be brewing in the U.S. People decide, "well I'm paying for this public system with my taxes anyway, why not take advantage of it and drop my private plan so I don't pay twice." Maybe I don't fully understand how its supposed to work, but what happens if instead of 30 million people suddenly their's 50 million more that switch over. Then the private insurer's lose profit and the government revenue from them.

It is not a bug - it is a feature. If you believe that the intent is to move the nation to socialized (totally) medicine. First you have to destroy the insurance companies.

[choff]

In the transition you could have very high deficits. Then there's the percentage GDP spent on healthcare from running both public and private systems covering the same thing, (redundant cost). It may be good for health industries and investors in those companies, but bad for the non healthcare industries. The insurance companies were just bailed out in the financial crisis, and now they face the prospect of decline in the health sector. This could get complicated.

[IntLibber]

I think you underestimate the ability of American citizens to frivalously abuse a system of entitelment into insolvency.

Interesting theory. So according to your oppinion, the system would not work in the US, because US citizens would abuse it more than Austrian citizens would?
Maybe there should have to be a system in place that prevents that from happening? In Austria expensive procedures have to be signed off on by another doctor (who is employed by the health insurance agency), the Chef Arzt. This prevents doctors from pushing unnecessary, expensive treatments. Of course the patient is always free to pay for these out of his own pocket. An alternative to that is to have an additional, private insurace that covers therapies that are not covered by the public health insurance.
Before someone here shouts "Death panels!", all life saving and even potentially life saving treatments are covered by the public insurance. The private insurance gives you better beds in private clinics, private doctors and some alternative treatments and stuff.

Any rules or system to prevent abuse will be deemed racist and/or sexist.

Think I'm joking? African American men have a significantly lower life expectancy. This will be deemed to be due to racist health care, so in order to affirmatively action a solution to this problem, which OMG CAN'T be the fault of the lifestyles of the individuals who don't live very long (i.e. choosing to commit crimes, use drugs, unprotected sex, drop out of school, unable to get a good job cause no education and a criminal record...) So more health care dollars will be spent disproportionately on african americans until their average life expectancy equalizes with whites, which wont happen until the other systemic socio-economic issues are resolved.

[Diogenes]

I think you underestimate the ability of American citizens to frivalously abuse a system of entitelment into insolvency.

Interesting theory. So according to your oppinion, the system would not work in the US, because US citizens would abuse it more than Austrian citizens would?

It is sentences like this which convince me that you don't have a clue. Freeloading is an art form in this country.

Maybe there should have to be a system in place that prevents that from happening?

ANOTHER one of those sentences. Yeah, we should create another bureaucracy to prevent abuse.

In Austria expensive procedures have to be signed off on by another doctor (who is employed by the health insurance agency), the Chef Arzt. This prevents doctors from pushing unnecessary, expensive treatments. Of course the patient is always free to pay for these out of his own pocket. An alternative to that is to have an additional, private insurace that covers therapies that are not covered by the public health insurance.
Before someone here shouts "Death panels!", all life saving and even potentially life saving treatments are covered by the public insurance. The private insurance gives you better beds in private clinics, private doctors and some alternative treatments and stuff.

I have never bothered to verify your claim that Nationalized Health Care works in Austria. You obviously accept that notion as a given, but I would be very surprised to discover that you've actually verified it.

That people in Austria are getting treated through a government ran program is obvious, of course, but whether or not the program is an optimal use of resources cannot be determined with the information that i've seen so far. I see dozens of horror stories coming out of Britain regarding their National Health Service, And likewise Canada, so it begs the question: Why do we not hear the same horror stories from Austria, France, Germany, etc.?

Are the British and Canadians so much more incompetent than their continental brethren ? Perhaps the British/Canadian system is just further along in a deterioration pattern that is inevitable with Government run health care ? Perhaps their are horror stories on the continent that we never hear about because they are written in German, or French, etc. ?

My point is that your assertions regarding Austria's health care are oddities in one way or another. Either the System works, and the Canadians and Brits are idiots, or it doesn't, and the failures simply aren't being promulgated.

There is a third possibility. Austrians are better people than Brits or Canadians, and therefore can utilize this sort of system without major abuses or incompetence. If THAT is the case, it is obvious that such a system would be useless to us, because we cannot weed out the dregs of our society, and they will guarantee the overload of a freeloading system.

[MSimon]

I think you underestimate the ability of American citizens to frivalously abuse a system of entitelment into insolvency.

Interesting theory. So according to your oppinion, the system would not work in the US, because US citizens would abuse it more than Austrian citizens would?
Maybe there should have to be a system in place that prevents that from happening? In Austria expensive procedures have to be signed off on by another doctor (who is employed by the health insurance agency), the Chef Arzt. This prevents doctors from pushing unnecessary, expensive treatments. Of course the patient is always free to pay for these out of his own pocket. An alternative to that is to have an additional, private insurace that covers therapies that are not covered by the public health insurance.
Before someone here shouts "Death panels!", all life saving and even potentially life saving treatments are covered by the public insurance. The private insurance gives you better beds in private clinics, private doctors and some alternative treatments and stuff.

Any rules or system to prevent abuse will be deemed racist and/or sexist.

Think I'm joking? African American men have a significantly lower life expectancy. This will be deemed to be due to racist health care, so in order to affirmatively action a solution to this problem, which OMG CAN'T be the fault of the lifestyles of the individuals who don't live very long (i.e. choosing to commit crimes, use drugs, unprotected sex, drop out of school, unable to get a good job cause no education and a criminal record...) So more health care dollars will be spent disproportionately on african americans until their average life expectancy equalizes with whites, which wont happen until the other systemic socio-economic issues are resolved.

A couple of those problems are caused by government. It is called Prohibition. So maybe they have a point.

So why isn't the Black Community speaking up about the issue? Well the government bribes Black Churches for the sham of rehabbing "addicts".

But at this point very few want to face up to the damages Prohibition is causing. So health care is instituted as a patch. But the people of the country love Prohibition esp police officers and prison guards who reap huge benefits from the policy.

A stupid people deserves the stupid government it gets. Quitcherbitchen.

[Skipjack]

was taught that the reason the Berlin wall was put up was because all the young E. Berliner's would go west for the well paying jobs while the old E. Berliner's stayed behind for the government pension. This created an untenable situation for the communists.

You should talk to your teacher...
The population of East and West Berlin is negligent in relation to the rest of former easter and western germany. It is a simply ridiculous assumption. The reasons for the iron curtain were much more malevolent.

I have never bothered to verify your claim that Nationalized Health Care works in Austria.

Well that is your problem, isnt it? You are making biased decisions based on insufficient information. You should check your facts and rethink your position.

You obviously accept that notion as a given, but I would be very surprised to discover that you've actually verified it.

Hu?
I am living here. I am dealing with it all the time. My wife is dealing with it too, since she emmediately got health insurance when she applied for a visa here (was insured with me, aas my wife). No problems, very few hurdles here.
We pay some 8% for healthcare here. This is a ridiculously small amount compared to what people in the US are paying. Everybody here has health insurace and the treatments are world class. We have much better service than Germany (based on information by my sister who has worked as an MD in both Germany and Austria) and I am sure we have much, much better service than GB and Canda. I actually feel offended by the fact that you are putting us into the same cathegory as them. In fact the Britts are known all over Europe to have a very bad and flawed system. Honestly I dont know what they are doing worse than us (I never bothered to check that), but the service is inferior to Germany (based on info from people I know that were living there for a while- moved from Germany). Anyway it is also pretty bad in international comparison as well. Of course those opposing public healthcare always pull out the worst examples for a comparison. Healthcare systems and quality in GB and also Canada are way inferior to Austria or even Germany and France.

[Diogenes]

I have never bothered to verify your claim that Nationalized Health Care works in Austria.

Well that is your problem, isnt it? You are making biased decisions based on insufficient information. You should check your facts and rethink your position.

This is not an issue that I care greatly about. It is only worth so much of my time to investigate. The degree of investigation necessary to satisfy my concept of certainty is far beyond the time i'm willing to invest.

You obviously accept that notion as a given, but I would be very surprised to discover that you've actually verified it.

Hu?
I am living here. I am dealing with it all the time. My wife is dealing with it too, since she emmediately got health insurance when she applied for a visa here (was insured with me, aas my wife). No problems, very few hurdles here.

Yes, it's a very silly notion that you might not know everything that is happening in health care in your own country. Indulge me for a moment.

My mother will occasionally tell me some piece of history which is absolutely wrong. (My dad used to do the same thing.) When I point out that she is mistaken, she simply responds " I LIVED IT! " To which I reply that she lived her little piece of it, and obviously had no first hand knowledge of what was happening in Europe, the Pacific, or Washington DC.

The only way to find out what really happened is to do research and not rely on anecdotal opinions. The same situation may be true of Health Care in Austria. The system works for you, your relatives, and all the people you know, and all the people you've ever heard of. That must mean it works for everybody right ? Without digging, who can say?
We used to have reporters for that. Nowadays we just have propaganda workers.

We pay some 8% for healthcare here. This is a ridiculously small amount compared to what people in the US are paying. Everybody here has health insurace and the treatments are world class. We have much better service than Germany (based on information by my sister who has worked as an MD in both Germany and Austria) and I am sure we have much, much better service than GB and Canda. I actually feel offended by the fact that you are putting us into the same cathegory as them.

You have government ran health care. They have government ran health care. In what way are they not the same category ?

In fact the Britts are known all over Europe to have a very bad and flawed system. Honestly I dont know what they are doing worse than us (I never bothered to check that), but the service is inferior to Germany (based on info from people I know that were living there for a while- moved from Germany). Anyway it is also pretty bad in international comparison as well. Of course those opposing public healthcare always pull out the worst examples for a comparison. Healthcare systems and quality in GB and also Canada are way inferior to Austria or even Germany and France.

I am highly confident that an American version of National Health care will be far worse than either the British or Canadian versions, yet you seem to think it will work as good as you believe the Austrian system works.


We already have a few versions of Government ran health care here in America, and I can assure you, they work terribly. Here where I live, we have Reynolds Army hospital, and the Indian Hospital. We also have the Veterans Administration Hospital about 90 miles away. They are horrible failures at providing quality care. I know lots of veterans that have been treated at both Reynolds and the VA hospital, and I know several Indians who've received treatment at the Indian hospital.

Did you miss the story I told about my Niece having her Eye cut out because those idiots told her it was causing her headaches? When the headaches continued they finally decided to look for something else and found a tumor in her head.