Thermonuclear Bomb-in-a-Bottle

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MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

I may look to the ESA, and maybe some of the smaller international space agencies, to choose a better direction, better missions, and better return on investment. NASA and all the space advocacy organizations have lost my support.
Space is as incidental to Space Agencies as Drugs are to the Drug War.

They are jobs programs.

Government has no incentive to do better. They have no competition.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Giorgio
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Post by Giorgio »

Shubedobedubopbopbedo wrote:Well, for one thing, the use of a massive pusher plate is just plain dumb. The impact of the blast would require shock absorbers, which in turn would require a cooling system and huge radiators.
If you think that you need huge radiators for the cooling of shock absorbers oil, try to imagine the cooling system that you will need to dissipate the heat of a "closed detonation chamber".

Anyhow, I believe that everyone here will be more than happy to give a look at any new idea and review it.

djolds1
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Post by djolds1 »

kunkmiester wrote:First, there were a few ideas for a shaped nuclear charge. The simplest was to wrap most of the bomb in materials that would reflect the blast and radiation in one direction. A light material, like foam, would provide an "endcap" which would absorb this energy and provide mass to hit the pusher plate--especially important in space, where there's no atmosphere to provide such.
I think the propellant was high density. Tungsten, IIRC.
kunkmiester wrote:Second, as I understand it the pulsed nature also helps with cooling, limiting the energy delivered to the pusher plate in that form, and providing time between pulses to dissipate heat.
Microseconds of heating. Basically irrelevant.
MSimon wrote:Government has no incentive to do better. They have no competition.
Not entirely true. Governments face at least one species of existential competitor. Other governments. If China or India were to use a few Wang gun shots and put 200,000 to 1,000,000 tonnes in orbit lickety-split...
Giorgio wrote:If you think that you need huge radiators for the cooling of shock absorbers oil, try to imagine the cooling system that you will need to dissipate the heat of a "closed detonation chamber".
Helios used a thin layer of water sprayed inside the detonation chamber for reaction mass and cooling.
Giorgio wrote:Anyhow, I believe that everyone here will be more than happy to give a look at any new idea and review it.
And persecute anyone who tries to steal credit for the idea. We're rather unforgiving of scientific cheats around here.
Vae Victis

kunkmiester
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Post by kunkmiester »

I think the propellant was high density. Tungsten, IIRC.
Tungsten I thought was one of the ideas for the reflector. Doesn't make sense to use it all over, the idea behind foam or whatever is that it will vaporize faster, letting more energy out the one direction you want it to go. Something like that.
Evil is evil, no matter how small

Shubedobedubopbopbedo
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Post by Shubedobedubopbopbedo »

I think the casing for the nuclear shape-charge was uranium. The end-caps were a plug of polyethylene, because it absorbs neutrons, has low molecular weight when ionized, and has far lower density than uranium. The blast would follow the direction of least resistance. At least that's the idea. I don't know if a nuclear shape-charge has ever been tested. No government wants to risk sanctions from the Security Council. And apparently, considering the recent Global Warming scare involving the threat of uncomfortable temperatures for people who wear 4-piece suits, they are all now afraid of their own shadows!

DeltaV
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Post by DeltaV »

Ooooooohoohoohoo. Security Council. Scary. Very scary.

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MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

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Last edited by MSimon on Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

BenTC
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Post by BenTC »

What do you mean Flash Gordon approaching?
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

kunkmiester
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Post by kunkmiester »

http://www.fantastic-plastic.com/Projec ... ogPage.htm

Put one of those in orbit and you won't be worrying about sanctions. :twisted: :twisted:
Evil is evil, no matter how small

djolds1
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Post by djolds1 »

kunkmiester wrote:
I think the propellant was high density. Tungsten, IIRC.
Tungsten I thought was one of the ideas for the reflector. Doesn't make sense to use it all over, the idea behind foam or whatever is that it will vaporize faster, letting more energy out the one direction you want it to go. Something like that.
Maybe I'm thinking of Casaba-Howitzer shells instead of pulse units. Need to check the book.
Vae Victis

93143
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Post by 93143 »

Shubedobedubopbopbedo wrote:Well, for one thing, the use of a massive pusher plate is just plain dumb. The impact of the blast would require shock absorbers, which in turn would require a cooling system and huge radiators. Not only would a large fraction of the energy of the blast be wasted by not impinging on the pusher plate, a large fraction of the energy impinging on the plate would be wasted as well, damped and converted into heat.
A few points:

1) The "shock absorbers" are not spring-dashpot units like in a car. They're undamped. Most of the excess mechanical energy in the shock absorption system just stays there during operation; the system is essentially a harmonic oscillator, and a pulse just reverses the direction of travel of the plate, rectifying the oscillation (or not, in the case of a dud/misfire, but the system is designed to handle this situation; it just waits another cycle of the oscillation and tries another bomb).

2) The collimation factor for a properly-designed Orion using properly-designed pulse units can get quite high. These are not spherically-symmetric explosions.

3) Your energy accounting is missing some numbers.

The base design was a 4000-ton vehicle with (according to Wikipedia) 0.15 kt bombs. That's 628 GJ per blast. Apparently each blast adds 30 mph to the fully-loaded vehicle (perhaps the pulse units are not all identical, or perhaps Wiki is wrong about the yield... if that were vacuum performance with all-identical 0.15 kt pulse units, you'd have trouble fitting even a single 900-unit charge into a vehicle with a 4000-ton GLOW, never mind a half a dozen spare magazines of 900 units each). Anyway, that's 326 MJ of vehicle kinetic energy added per 628 GJ blast, in the vehicle inertial reference frame immediately prior to the pulse.

Now, this sort of thing is unavoidable considering the vast difference in mass between the spacecraft and the pulse unit. Conservation of momentum alone dictates the amount of energy 'lost'; the amount of damping loss in the shock absorber system does not affect it at all (well, except for an infinitesimal advantage obtained from a higher downward velocity of the pusher plate during the blast, but that's negligible; it increases Isp by maybe a few parts per thousand even at this low performance level). Barring improvements in the collimation factor (which is already pretty good), you cannot improve on the energy ratio without reducing the Isp. It's no different from chemical rocketry, in which most of the energy of combustion leaves with the high-velocity propellant.

Most of the heating on the pusher plate is handled by the ablative oil sprayed on between blasts, so it can be ignored. What about the shock absorber system?

The blast rate is about one per second. Based on the diagram in the Nuclear Pulse Space Vehicle Study, part III, the pusher plate (86' across, 3.75" thick at the edge, at least 8" in the centre) is probably in the vicinity of 600 tons or more. Thus the initial velocity of the plate is 200 mph, with an energy of 2.18 GJ. So the live energy in the shock absorber oscillation is about 1.85 GJ. How much of that does it bleed off in half a cycle (about one second)?

Well, it's complicated, since the system is designed for the obviously unachievable target of zero damping, but let's pick a number out of the air and say 5%. If that number is somehow accurate, the shock absorber system dissipates 92.5 MJ per pulse, or 92.5 MW.

[Just FYI, I calculate that ionizing radiation from the blast puts about twice that amount of energy (give or take an order of magnitude or two) into the pusher plate. It would be more, but the heavy tungsten/beryllium oxide reaction mass absorbs a bunch of it. In any case, the thing is sprayed with oil every time, which helps a lot with cooling...]

Please note that a typical "burn" for the baseline Orion was about 800 pulses, and it actually could not exceed 900 pulses in one go without pausing to swap in a fresh magazine. A thousand tons of carbon steel, initially at room temperature before absorbing 800 doses of 92.5 MJ each, will heat up by about 168 K, assuming no cooling, radiative or otherwise. That leaves the assembly at 466 K, or just barely hot enough to melt solder.

With the use of higher-Isp (=lower-thrust, leading to reduced pusher energy) pulse units in space, and the potential for lower shock absorber system losses than the 5% per half-cycle I used above, I'd hazard a guess that an Orion of this class with a surface emissivity of zero could expend its entire bomb load without getting the steel anywhere near hot enough to fail...


What would it take to dissipate 92.5 MW in steady-state? Keeping in mind that you don't have to...

Well, based on the drawings in the study, the second-stage shock absorbers have a surface area in the range of 1000 m², and the first-stage shock absorbers have a surface area in the range of 900 m² (counting the intermediate platform but not the pusher). Taking intercept fractions into account (eyeballed values), and accounting for surface availability during a pulse cycle, let's say 400+400+200 = 1000 m². Assume an emissivity of 0.55 for steel.

1312 K equilibrium temperature. That's 1039ºC, or 1902ºF. Coat the steel with something with an emissivity of 0.9, and the temperature drops to 1160 K, or 887ºC, or 1629ºF.

Steel should be able to handle that, right?

Sure, there might be hot spots and issues with internal conductive heat transfer. But these are preliminary design studies - detailed designs could easily include provisions for efficient waste heat radiation. It doesn't take much, as you can see. Nothing particularly "huge" - the outer surface of the upper section of the propulsion module would do nicely all by itself...

Or you could simply design it to have lower damping losses. At 1% loss per half-cycle, 776 K is adequate. That's 503°C, or 937ºF. Even aluminium could survive that...

Shubedobedubopbopbedo
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Post by Shubedobedubopbopbedo »

Sounds like you've done some homework. I haven't had the time.

Anyway, I'm assuming that the shock absorbers are actually shock absorbers. If they were what you describe, they would be called springs, not shock absorbers.

Also, without actually running the numbers, I'm wondering if your estimate of vibration frequency is correct ~1 second? Don't you think this would shake the spacecraft to pieces?

150-ton bombs are fission bombs. These are not fusion-based. A fusion-based Orion would use 1-Megaton and higher yield explosives. Due to international treaties, AFAIK there are no fusion bombs in existence anywhere in the world. The technology does not exist anymore. The low-yield fission bombs are radation bombs, giving off up to 80% of their energy as neutrons and x-rays. The uranium casing is opaque to x-rays, so some of them might be converted to heat. But I'm not convinced that a low-yield bomb is the best choice. The yield energy of a fusion bomb has a much larger blast fraction. At least, that's what I've read.

I think the pusher plate design is inherently massive due to the compression members needed in the structure. There is a way to make the whole thing less massive, and hence faster.

I'm hoping that General Fusion is successful, and explosives won't be needed for space propulsion. Indeed, I'm having a bit of a crisis as far as finding a mission that requires anything but chemical rockets. Ie. I'm having a bad day.

MirariNefas
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Post by MirariNefas »

Due to international treaties, AFAIK there are no fusion bombs in existence anywhere in the world. The technology does not exist anymore.
No, there's plenty of hydrogen bombs left.

Shubedobedubopbopbedo
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Post by Shubedobedubopbopbedo »

No, there aren't.

ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

here we go again.

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