The Web Of Trust

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Scupperer
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Post by Scupperer »

Skipjack wrote:
American culture has resulted in a society that, when met with catastrophe, tends to work together, rather than work apart.
Uhm, what happened in the wake of Katrina proved you wrong.
He said American Culture, not Government Culture. There is a distinct difference. Almost all of the failures of Katrina can be directly linked to governmental failures, from the Army Corp of Engineer's failure on the levees and Mr. Go, to Gov. Blanco's politically based refusal to timely ask for Federal help, to the helpless yet violent welfare culture class that rampaged the city in the storm's aftermath. And don't forget all of the rebuild money that never showed up and was siphoned off by crooked politicians and corrupt bureaucracies.

Kind of like the "stimulus" money.

As for the people of New Orleans not affected by the government - they were all out helping each other in the aftermath, and have managed to rebuild the city, despite help from the government.
Perrin Ehlinger

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

I was referring to the violence and looting that went on in the aftermath of Katrina. Of course there were also a bunch of companies that somehow managed to get lucrative government contracts to supply nothing.
So no, Katrina really did not show the best side of the american people in no way. That does not mean that americans are generally like thatl, but it means that you cant make a broad and general statement like that.

JLawson
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Post by JLawson »

Skipjack wrote:
American culture has resulted in a society that, when met with catastrophe, tends to work together, rather than work apart.
Uhm, what happened in the wake of Katrina proved you wrong.
I tend to disagree. What happened in the wake of Katrina was emblematic of a dysfunctional system. You had a mayor that didn't implement city evacuation and disaster plans. You had a state governor that refused to implement disaster plans until the last possible moment, and had to almost be forced to request federal assistance.

You had a city population that, for the most part, wasn't well educated and was very dependent on the city infrastructure for transportation. It's noteworthy that there were a considerable number of busses that could have been used, but weren't.

http://www.snopes.com/katrina/photos/buses.asp

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Controversy ... icane_plan

One thing that certainly wasn't in short supply was the media. It kind of makes you wonder just how bad the civil problems (looting) actually WERE, versus what was reported. "If it bleeds, it leads" is the primary tenent, and you'll not get stories of things going RIGHT from folks who've spent a lot of money, time, and effort to get their correspondents into the middle of a 'disaster area'.

A large number of people were evacuated from the city and dispersed nationwide. Many, many localities opened their schools, their churches, park buildings, their homes as disaster relief shelters. The web of trust got them out of their area - safely.

And the city actually made it through the hurricane with minimal flooding. It was the levee breach that did the damage.

THERE the web of trust failed. The Army Corps of Engineers contracted with local companies to build and maintain and improve the levee system. That those companies didn't perform as promised is a matter of record.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_levee ... ew_Orleans
The original design for the steel sheet foundations for the flood walls showed a proposed depth of 10 feet (3 m), and design documents show that calculations were made with the wall base at 12.8 feet (3.9 m). According to a New Orleans engineer, the depth was apparently later increased to 17 feet (5.1 m), and this is what was built. However, a forensic engineering team from the Louisiana State University, using sonar, showed that at one point near the 17th Street Canal breach, the piling extends just 10 feet (3 m) below sea level, 7 feet (2.1 m) shallower than the Corps of Engineers had maintained. "The Corps keeps saying the piles were 17 feet (5 m), but their own drawings show them to be 10 feet, Ivor van Heerden said. "This is the first time anyone has been able to get a firm fix on what's really down there. And, so far, it's just 10 feet (3 m). Not nearly deep enough."[15] Other reports confirmed that construction on the London Avenue and Industrial Canal levees was similarly below the stated standard.[16] They also found that homeowners along the 17th Street Canal, near the site of the breach, had been reporting their yards flooding from persistent seepage from the canal for a year prior to Hurricane Katrina. Other studies showed the levee floodwalls on the 17th Street Canal were, "destined to fail,", from bad Corps of Engineers design, saying in part, "that miscalculation was so obvious and fundamental," investigators said, they, "could not fathom how the design team of engineers from the Corps, local firm Eustis Engineering, and the national firm Modjeski and Masters could have missed what is being termed the costliest engineering mistake in American history."[16]
Also - it didn't help much that much of New Orleans is below sea level. At that point, you have to trust that the engineers did their work right... and it WAS, pretty much... until it wasn't.

I'd say that for the most part, the web of trust held.
So no, Katrina really did not show the best side of the american people in no way. That does not mean that americans are generally like thatl, but it means that you cant make a broad and general statement like that.
Sorry - but the above doesn't make much sense to me. If the statement is that Americans are generally supportive and trustworthy, then one exception doesn't invalidate the statement. Neither does it make the exception the rule.
When opinion and reality conflict - guess which one is going to win in the long run.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Josh Cryer
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Post by Josh Cryer »

JLawson, my brother was there and we didn't hear from him in 2 days. Turns out a guy was boat lifting people out and they were stealing gas from gas stations to get the fuel (the city was effectively abandoned at this point). Some people hadn't eaten in two days, and were looting for food. When my brother came to my house he had a trash bag full of candy, and said that's all he could get to eat. The water was long taken.

The coast guard wouldn't let people exit off of the very bridge my brother escaped by (because it was in to a more affluent area), but he managed to hitch a ride about 10 minutes before the bridge was closed (there are many reports about this particular bridge, and how people were stranded on the other side of it for nearly a week). That is an example of Government Culture, right there. Fortunately Baton Rouge stood up and started shipping people in very quickly, and hundreds upon hundreds of American citizens offered their guest bedroom to complete strangers. I remember Katrina, and while there are a lot of bad memories that the media would like you to remember, I remember the voluntarism that occurred.

Also it is of note that gang heavy areas are not and can never be emblematic of American culture as a whole. No matter how much we want to fantasize about the mafia or about crime culture.

I drove down there post-Katrina (about a week afterward, when everything was starting to calm down) and volunteered for 3 days, and I wasn't the only one. They were turning people away left and right. We effectively did a tour of Mississippi and Louisiana handing out Red Cross food, bottled water, and blankets.

The people who don't volunteer when they are in close proximity to tragedy, they are those who are not really representative of the American culture as a whole. Gangs, selfish people, assholes, etc.
Science is what we have learned about how not to fool ourselves about the way the world is.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Gangs, selfish people, assholes, etc.
My personal life experience tells me that you will find those people in all places, everywhere in the world, not matter whether rich or poor.

Josh Cryer
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Post by Josh Cryer »

Skipjack wrote:My personal life experience tells me that you will find those people in all places, everywhere in the world, not matter whether rich or poor.
Yes, but do they represent all Americans? The Friedman school of thought would hope so. Fortunately that's not the case.

I helped two ladies out with their car the other day. They asked me to, and I look like a nerd who knows nothing about cars. If they thought like you they would have dismissed me (as has happened before), and thought I knew nothing.

Depending on where I have lived, and I have lived many places, the only places where your stereotype really shows are in those places where gangs and uneducated selfish fools predominate. They are not representative of America.
Science is what we have learned about how not to fool ourselves about the way the world is.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Well having to do with corporate america, I can tell you that I have seen bulliish and IMHO very untrustworthy behaviour there as well. By a bunch of mormons too (one more reason why I cant stand them).
I would rather go with some thugs from the street. At least I know that with those I have to cover my ass. These people though were friendly to my face when I was there to get them out of their own mess. That after I had been what I thought was friends with them for almost a decade. Then when they were in a stronger position again, they raped me like a bitch then kicking me into the face when I was on the ground and leaving me to die. Sorry, but from my experience, the rich and educated and especially the religious can be just as big selfish assholes as the poor and uneducated US citizens. The only difference is that they were not short of some self righteous justification for their behaviour "there is no friendship in business".
So my conclusion is: wealth and education does not prevent you from being an asshole.

Betruger
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Post by Betruger »

It just makes you an asshole with influence and/or that can get away with more.

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