Google Engineers Say Renewable Energy ‘Simply won’t work’

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GIThruster
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Re: Google Engineers Say Renewable Energy ‘Simply won’t work

Post by GIThruster »

palladin9479 wrote:It's impossible for two cars colliding to create a gasoline explosion, there isn't enough time for the gasoline to vaporize in a sufficiently contained area for produce the conditions for an explosion.
All of the empty space in a gas tank is full of gas vapor that will indeed explode if ignited. That's not enough gas to form the fireball Hollywood wants you to believe in, but it's a serious explosion nonetheless. As a kid I worked for my father on his fleet of Checker taxis, and one of the most exciting tasks was when we had a gas tank leak that epoxy putty just would not stop. We'd take the tank out of the vehicle, and wash it out as best we could, then fill it mostly with water and braze the tank. No matter how well we washed them, there were still several times when tiny quantities of gas ignited in the tank, which immediately expanded the tank and either cause it to balloon out and shoot into the air ten feet, or split and open like a clam.

When I think back on those times I have to wonder whether my father was utterly mad--to so risk himself to save the cost of a gas tank was just plain nuts. Those were 20 gallon tanks. If tractor semis used gas, their much larger tanks would be much more dangerous when mostly empty.

As far as hydrogen's much higher vapor pressure is concerned, yes. It's been known for many decades that gasses like hydrogen, propane and methane are very dangerous and can explode. This is why propane is not allowed in certain enclosed places like the tunnels in and out of NYC. If you own an RV, you probably can't use the tunnels as that is considered too much risk to the public safety. I would note though, that lots of municipalities have used propane powered vehicles for decades without incident, and the forklifts common to every Home Depot and warehouse all use propane. So though it is more dangerous than gas, it is not an unmanageable danger. Propane stations at the local hardware store and such are by code, always outside and unenclosed and apart from the few precautions like this, it's not so bad. Hydrogen is bad--very had. It wants to blow up all the time and its vapor pressure is so high, that released to atmospheric pressure, it takes almost no time to explode. Much less time than gasoline vapor.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Tom Ligon
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Re: Google Engineers Say Renewable Energy ‘Simply won’t work

Post by Tom Ligon »

You have me remembering, not too fondly, the gas tank of a 1969 Ford Falcon my wife had leaned to drive in as a teen, and wanted to restore. Shortly after we got it, it developed a gas tank leak. I examined it and found the entire bottom of this rotten tank was a mass of repair attempts. It was welded, brazed, epoxied, and maybe patched with chewing gum. I made one attempt to braze it, involving multiple flushes with alcohol and water, totally purging the air with water, and attempting the repair with minimal air in the tank.

It developed a new leak within the month, and I scrounged another tank from a junk yard. The replacement I rustproofed inside and out. One day someone will discover a rusty spot in a field, with a perfectly preserved Falcon gas tank sitting in the center.

Diogenes
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Re: Google Engineers Say Renewable Energy ‘Simply won’t work

Post by Diogenes »

paperburn1 wrote:Hydrogen, hydrogen, hydrogen. Here's an idea for the brain trust. What would it take in solar panels to run one of those CO2 to liquid fuel converters. Until we come up with a better battery technology I think that would be the most efficient way to use solar power that could be easily distributed to the general public.Just turn it into a liquid fuel like gasoline now you have portability, Usability, and hopefully a safer product than hydrogen. Just a random thought, does anybody else got anything?


I have been following this topic somewhat and I suppose this is just as good a place to join it as any.


A week or so ago I did see something which might be plausible and worthwhile. I didn't save the link, but the idea was to use a new found and inexpensive catalyst to split water into hydrogen and then store it in tanks to be later recombined through a fuel cell.


I think this is the story I read. http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/nove ... 10514.html



At the moment, I know of know better idea for storing solar energy than this. I have read of fuel cell efficiencies as high as 90%, and if this is true, it certainly beats the H3ll out of trying to burn the gas in a combustion engine.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Tom Ligon
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Re: Google Engineers Say Renewable Energy ‘Simply won’t work

Post by Tom Ligon »

There seems to be a new announcement of a breakthru catalyst for water electrolysis every year or two lately.

I first encountered it in a paper circa 1975. The catalyst was titanium dioxide semiconductor, and it needed to be exposed to sunlight to work, but it greatly reduced the voltage and power needed for electrolysis.

They seem to now be adding a second compound to the mix, but most of the papers cropping up still use titanium dioxide.

Presuming this works and works well on an industrial scale, the resulting merit of the overall system will be extremely sensitive to just how much savings this approach provides.

The papers I've seen say that sunlight exposure is needed, so I've always figured it was a natural for use with photovoltaic power.

Tom Ligon
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Re: Google Engineers Say Renewable Energy ‘Simply won’t work

Post by Tom Ligon »

Well, well, one minute you're talking about graphene, the next minute you need a permselective membrane for hydrogen for a fuel cell application, and then

http://www.hngn.com/articles/50938/2014 ... by,air.htm

mvanwink5
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Re: Google Engineers Say Renewable Energy ‘Simply won’t work

Post by mvanwink5 »

The only breakthroughs I am interested in are the dark horse fusion types. Fracking has given us a reprieve, enough time to finish a couple of those projects.

Where is the cash for backing EMC2???? Forget the pathetic solar and wind... :lol: :lol: :lol:
Counting the days to commercial fusion. It is not that long now.

D Tibbets
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Re: Google Engineers Say Renewable Energy ‘Simply won’t work

Post by D Tibbets »

Catalyst seems to be a magic word. But, a catalyst does not change the energy balance of a reaction. The reactant(s) potential energy and the product(s) potential energies are not changed. The difference between them is not changed. The Gibbs free energy is changed. For a reaction to proceed there is often some amount of additional energy that has to be added to the system to drive the reaction. This energy is recovered as the reaction proceeds, except for losses due to inefficiencies and thermodynamic limits which can be minimized but not eliminated. Catalysts essentially reduce this Gibbs free energy and this eases driving the reaction, it is easier, and probably faster (perhaps much faster), but the energy balance is not effected, except as mentioned, by reducing inefficiencies. If you have to heat reactants to 1000 degrees C to have the reaction proceed at a desired rate, a catalyst might reduce the necessary heat input to only 100 degrees C. Insulation- conduction, convection and radiation losses may then be less for the system (smaller delta T), but the energy balance between reactants and product is not changed. There are all sorts of advantages that a catalyst can contribute to a chemical or other process, but it cannot change the basic thermodynamics. If you need to add 10 units of energy to drive the system (overcome Gibbs free energy) that energy is recovered as the potential well between the Gibbs free energy peak to the products is increased the same amount

A better catalyst does not make it energy cheaper to make hydrogen from water, except for reducing inefficiencies in the system. If the inefficiencies are great, the gains may be great, if the inefficiencies are small, possible gains are also small. You reach a point of diminishing returns.

If you have 100 units of solar power, you might be able to convert it to hydrogen gas and have retained energy of 50 to 99 units, depending on inefficiencies. You might be able to convert it to similar levels of battery power. Then other questions about the cost per energy unit storage of batteries and hydrogen (with it's associated energy costs for compression of liquefaction) has to be considered.

I don't know the details, but that solar power storage seems to emphasize use of batteries, holt salts, water elevation or gass compression would seem to argue that the hydrogen route is less favorable. Remember that the conversion of the stored energy back to electricity or mechanical energy is important, and may be the dominate issue, especially as the processes for making the stored energy medium becomes more efficient. This would seem to favor fuel cells or batteries over thermal modalities as the efficiencies are significantly better. I'm not sure how gravity storage would compare.

If hydrogen is pressurized or liquified you may need need to use ~ 5-40% of the hydrogens energy content to do so. Such concentrated hydrogen may be convenient for mobile uses, but it does have a penalty that has to be figured into the final picture.

http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/901 ... ession.pdf

An example- with very good electrolysis efficiency you might obtain 99 units of hydrogen energy from 100 units of input energy. But final use efficiency may be ~ 60% to 94% of the input energy. If you burn coal with CO2 sequestration you might obtain 100 units of input energy by burning ~ 150 units of coal energy (I have heard that sequestration consumes ~ 50% of initial coal energy). From an environmental standpoint you may get a fraction of the original power potential and not produce significant atmospheric CO2. But you need to add in other considerations like coal mining and transport costs (environmentally and cost) , increased power plant costs and in terms of the number of equivalent plants needed, etc. I'm not sure much, if any gain can be achieved.

This picture changes if the power source is relatively cheap fusion energy (this leaves out tokamaks). Fission is similar though it is not very cheap, though good supplies exist if thorium is used. Fission also has it's own environmental issues.

I wonder if hydrogen is the ideal final product. Synthesis of hydrocarbons (methane and on up) with cheap and non polluting energy sources avoids much of the problems of hydrogen and would be mostly CO2 neutral. Heavier hydrocarbons are already part of the infrastructure. They are safer and more convenient. My vague picture of the least disruptive and cheapest evolution is electric cars with supplemental gasoline powered generators. These hybird cars are carbon neutral with solar power or nuclear power derived synthetic fuels. are not range or use limited, and might help with energy storage with a smart, two way electrical grid.

There are choices for the end product used to meet your goals, but the real problem that has to be answered first is the energy source. Coal sequestration might answer some environmental issues but it is expensive, it would increase coal usage by at least 50% and perhaps by as much as 100%. With additional uses across the energy use spectrum, duration of the supply and World politics become more prevalent. Fission may be less supply limited, but is again a limited duration solution, even if all of the concerns can be met. Fusion, and especially cheap fusion is the ideal answer. Solar might be pushed to adequate levels, though land use would be huge, considerable excess capacity would be needed, and painful conservation regimens would probably be needed. A mixed bag of solutions, including continuing expansion of fossil fuel reserves eases the acuteness of the problem, except of course for those who believe global warming due to man made CO2 is a dire and immediate threat...

Dan Tibbets
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D Tibbets
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Re: Google Engineers Say Renewable Energy ‘Simply won’t work

Post by D Tibbets »

mvanwink5 wrote:The only breakthroughs I am interested in are the dark horse fusion types. Fracking has given us a reprieve, enough time to finish a couple of those projects.

Where is the cash for backing EMC2???? Forget the pathetic solar and wind... :lol: :lol: :lol:
If you do not wish to read my previous lengthy post, this condenses it nicely. The only exception is that solar and wind, while not pathetic, would require heroic efforts and involve some sacrifices if it is to become the dominate energy source for the world.

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

DeltaV
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Re: Google Engineers Say Renewable Energy ‘Simply won’t work

Post by DeltaV »

The idea of extracting H nuclei from the air with a simple graphene membrane and then reacting it in a fuel cell has a certain appeal to it, but what would the power density be? Too low and the device would be limited to non-mobile applications, except maybe in Jupiter's atmosphere
(<nudge> JPL).

Unless H can be locked into some material at a high density and only released as needed, or used "just in time" as above, an H-based economy doesn't thrill me too much (excepting, of course, an economy based on H-11B fusion).

One of my engineering professors was a former Navy airship guy. He hated anything involving stored H, having witnessed some deaths and/or injuries involving low-visibility H fires that were not noticed until it was too late.

There are also the issues of H-embrittlement of metals, and, could atmospheric H depletion be used as another excuse for totalitarian control by the climateers.

choff
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Re: Google Engineers Say Renewable Energy ‘Simply won’t work

Post by choff »

Diesel and gasoline work reasonably well for hydrogen storage. People forget that when S. Africa was oil embargoed they simply converted it from coal, which was how it was supplied before oil wells came into production.
CHoff

Tom Ligon
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Re: Google Engineers Say Renewable Energy ‘Simply won’t work

Post by Tom Ligon »

DeltaV wrote:The idea of extracting H nuclei from the air with a simple graphene membrane and then reacting it in a fuel cell has a certain appeal to it, but what would the power density be? Too low and the device would be limited to non-mobile applications, except maybe in Jupiter's atmosphere
(<nudge> JPL).

Unless H can be locked into some material at a high density and only released as needed, or used "just in time" as above, an H-based economy doesn't thrill me too much (excepting, of course, an economy based on H-11B fusion).

One of my engineering professors was a former Navy airship guy. He hated anything involving stored H, having witnessed some deaths and/or injuries involving low-visibility H fires that were not noticed until it was too late.

There are also the issues of H-embrittlement of metals, and, could atmospheric H depletion be used as another excuse for totalitarian control by the climateers.
I am more than a little dubious about extracting hydrogen from air, but I thought that atomic hydrogen perm-selective membrane was a neat tool, clearly interesting for fuel cells.

There have been people looking into low-pressure storage tricks for H2 for vehicle fuel tanks for decades. I have not kept up with the progress.

Hydrogen embrittlement is real, but they still ship the stuff in steel tanks, so evidently the effect is manageable.

ohiovr
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Re: Google Engineers Say Renewable Energy ‘Simply won’t work

Post by ohiovr »

It is expensive compared to the grid. When it gets as espensive or less, it will work. Unfortunately we are 2-3 economic break thrus away in energy storage to do it. If solar panels were commonly 40% efficient and expensive as they are now, we will still need an economic way to store the energy. Lead acid batteries are garbage. They don't hold dilly do for energy, and they don't last forever (far from it).

D Tibbets
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Re: Google Engineers Say Renewable Energy ‘Simply won’t work

Post by D Tibbets »

DeltaV wrote:The idea of extracting H nuclei from the air with a simple graphene membrane and then reacting it in a fuel cell has a certain appeal to it, but what would the power density be? Too low and the device would be limited to non-mobile applications, except maybe in Jupiter's atmosphere
(<nudge> JPL).
.....
Harvesting hydrogen from Jupiter cloud tops may be reasonable. But, then to burn it you have to collect oxygen or other oxidizing agents. That would probably be the expensive/ difficult part. Use of harvested hydrogen in a fusion reactor might be reasonable for D-D reactions, or even a D-D 1/2 catalyzed reactor, but for P-B11 fusion you now need to find a source of Boron and the isotopic separation equipment to get pure B11. The effort may not be better than just carrying the fusion ingredients in tanks. A depo that refueled a fleet of ships may be a different matter.

Using Jupiter cloud top hydrogen as the bulk propellant in a diluted fusion plasma rocket as envisioned by Bussard might make sense. Only the B11 would need to be carried or picked up at dedicated depos. A comet or small moons could also serve as low gravity sources of hydrogen, as well as oxygen, and possibly boron. The expensive fuel at the local rocket filling station may not be hydrogen, but processed boron.

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

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