how about MOS2 as coiling

Discuss the technical details of an "open source" community-driven design of a polywell reactor.

Moderators: tonybarry, MSimon

wacker.popeln
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Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:38 pm

Postby wacker.popeln » Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:55 pm

Roger wrote:
Thank you hanelyp, do remember what Bussard/Nebel said about the ratio, my memory is thinking 8 to 1 ?


i think this ratio will increase. how much is hte question.
also the problem is the absolute amount of gamma/xray levels not just hte relative ratio. at some point it gets really realyl really really dirty. how much is the quesion. 3 meters radius/9feet or more.


not to get offtopic. does anyone have the conductivity rate of mos-hafnium or most-hafnium-tantalum (espec higher temperature conductivity)

D Tibbets
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Postby D Tibbets » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:22 am

Some comments on presented fragmented ideas.

In an electromagnet the makeup of the wires is not contributing to the magnetic field. It is mostly a matter of the amp-turns. More amps means more magnetic strength, more turns means more magnetic strength. The problem is that more turns means more resistance in the necessary thinner and longer wires. Both adds heat. There is a compromise that best fits the heat load and the ability to cool the magnets. High temperature cooling at ~ 600 degrees C may allow for steam generation, but it probably plays hell with the wire conductivity, insulating varnish, etc. I do not expect useful power production from the magnet cooling liquid. The magnet shielding cooling in outer layers may be a different matter.This would be the cooling from the X-rays, neutrons and/or fusion alphas, protons, tritons, etc. hitting the surface of the magrid. Hopefully the fusion ions will not be hitting the surface of the magrid much. Most will exit through the cusps and hit the vacuum vessel wall or give up their energy to a direct conversion grid. The heat generated from neutral particles and charged particles will be a complex problem with complex solutions and tradeoffs.

I have no idea of the conductivity of various compounds, except that I have heard of nothing better than chilled copper or silver, except for possibly graphene structures- tubes/sheets/etc. Then are there the superconductors.

Keep in mind that the high energy fusion ions will heat the plasma very little, their Coulomb collision cross sections are small and thus heat the plasma little before they escape. They do heat any surface they hit. The Polywell is not an ignition machine. I'm uncertain but I do not think they contribute much to the Bremsstruhlung either, partially because they have a relatively short dwell time inside the machine.

The electrons velocity is also key to bremstruhlung. When the hot electron passes an ion then breaking radiation is produced at 1.75 power of the electron temperature. The key is that the electrons are not at a constant velocity. They also have a potential well with the peak at the center. This is where the electrons are the slowest. This is also where the ions are the densest and fastest but the speed of the ions is proportionately less (based on mass). This minimizes the Bremsstrulung while a dense population of ions can exist at the same time. This is an ideal situation and how close the real conditions inside will approach this is anyone's guess. Also mentioned was the dilution of the high Z fuel (He3 or Boron). The total ion density (and thus ~ density dependent fusion rate) is maintained compared to significant Bremsstruhlung reduction.

The alphas in a production machine may contribute significantly to the exterior magrid particles, but in these small research machines they are completely insignificant. They do not pull electrons out with them (this was a major argument with A. Carlson several years ago(ie:bipolar flows). The positive ions (fusion) leaving the system does reduce the number of new electrons needed to maintain the potential well. In certain 'optimistic scenarios' this could become a problem as the injection electron current could drop to zero. This is mentioned in the 2008 patent application(and the first patent?). The buildup of charge outside the magrid in these small research machines is due to injection gas that was never ionized (or recombined) while transiting the internal magrid space, but only once they were outside the magrid. It is not associated with exiting fusion ions. Admittedly this could become a problem in a production machine with huge fusion ion fluxes (~10^20 per second to a paltry ~ 10^9 to 10^12 in these research machines. Removing these ions, and neutrals once they touch a grounding surface, will be a challenge by itself.

Another way to look at it is that the overall vacuum vessel density may only be ~ 10^19 particles per cubic meter. This is limited by arcing concerns. With the Wiffleball trapping factor of ~ 1000X for charged particles, the average density inside of the Wiffleball may reach 10^22 charged particles per cubic meter. As the fusion scales as the square of the density, the fusion rate per unit volume may be a million times greater (Nebel estimated a conservative ~ 60,000 times greater). This is why the Wiffleball is essential. It allows for much smaller machines, and much shorter required confinement times compared to Tokamaks which might manage 10^19 or 10^20 particles per cubic meter densities.

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

wacker.popeln
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Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:38 pm

Postby wacker.popeln » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:09 am

noone questions hte superiority of hte polywell design compared to tokamaks.

in tokamaks the electonrs should cumulate in the outer ring only and the shape of hte plasma should be self sealing against htem wiht centrifuge forces to reduce bremsstrahlung.

the polywell is a totally different toy. its a velocity fusor it tries to speed up the particles to fuse - not wiht heat (their shaking velocity is so gigantic that when they come close enough they fuse) but wiht attraction to hte electron ball and keeping hte momentum.

this means the proton from hydrogen accelerates faster (due to slower mass) than the boron - or hte boron accelerates faster when it wanna catch more electrons than hydrogen -despite its bigger mass. (all which im sure htey didnt simulate well either - that hte

OPTIMUM SPOT TO MERGE IS NOT CENTER BUT ABIT DELAYED depends which is faster).


means also when the boron accelerates its stopped less easily which helps the fusion - or because it attracts more electrons is stopped alot easier

again you need to replace hte fusion location by velocity of each.
*********************************************************

what i question is how dirty all this process gets and there will be significant amounts of falling-apart-electrons in this toy and therefore significant amount of bremsstrAhlung.

(means breaking radiation in german btw as wacker popeln means bravely pooling your nose)

there where recirrcling electorns hit hte electron ball, there where the heavy nuclei catch some electonrs in the way and fuse and destrcut htem
tehre wher ehte fusion energy destructs electrons
and htere wher ehte fast fusion products destruct electrosn in tehway


this means alos you need more and more and more and more electrons than you calculated a n d get the losses either as
discharge from catched electrons or from gamma/xray breakups of electrons.

and all i wonder is how much
how dirtty or howmuch efficnency loss hte bigger you make it
ie hte stronger hte fields get
teh more dense the electorn ball gets
the morepopulated it gets
the more pulses
etc
etc
etc


superconductors are good when the majority of heat comes from current heating and not from hte fusion process.
that would be ideal hten of course. when the heat in the device is neglectable
but it doesnt explain why noone bought some titanium-niobium wire mixed it with copper and put abit supercold helium through it to test it
and that since hte 80s????

this here stinks if you ask me there must be sth fishy abotu this why the superconductors do not seem to work out

i bet on hte discharge on dense electron ball. it may also break the light proton from hydrogen as it moves to center and or the boron catches too mang electrons and gets slowed down either

and noone understands why it doesnt fuse well then in huge

yes?

D Tibbets
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Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:52 am

Postby D Tibbets » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:30 pm

I miss used the term "bipolar"in my previous post (again :( ). The comments about ion and electron flows may be better described in this old paper...

http://www.askmar.com/Fusion_files/EMC2 ... 20Flow.pdf.

As for comments about magnets, superconducting or otherwise.It is a topic with it's own subtleties. There has been some discussion about magnet cooling/ shielding here. perhaps M. Simon has had the most authority.

From outside in there would be one or two water shells to absorb and carry away the heat from sources inside the magrid- fusion, bremmstruhlung, etc. A vacuum shell for insulation, then a shell containing the superconductor (or copper wire) and coolant (liquid helium of liquid nitrogen).M. Simon estimated that ~ 40% of the magrid can may be occupied by the magnetic field generating wire. The Demo Pollywell, sometimes called WB100, that was proposed by Bussard was a ~ 3 meter diameter magrid .with ~ 10 Tesla magnetic fields provided by cooled copper windings. Bussard left the issue of improved conductors for the magnets to subsequent engineering development. This is similar to the Jet Tokamak. It used copper coil magnets, though any consideration for a production Tokamak assumes super conductors.

Use of the term destructing the electrons is misleading. In these machines the electrons speed and direction is manipulated, but there is no destruction of electrons. The only place in nuclear fusion that his may apply is reverse beta decay, which is not a component of the physics within a Polywell, or a Tokamak for that matter. The electrons may be lost from containment but they are not destroyed. This electron containment loss is what determines if the energy balance can be made positive with D-D fusion. With P-B11 fusion other issues like Bremsstruhlung complicates the issue.

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

wacker.popeln
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:38 pm

Postby wacker.popeln » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:36 pm

D Tibbets wrote:e Bremsstruhlung .

Dan Tibbets


:D its really BremsstrAhlung

-breaking radiation

93143
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Postby 93143 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:10 pm

Braking, not breaking...

wacker.popeln
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Postby wacker.popeln » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:45 pm

93143 wrote:Braking, not breaking...


yes of course
break - destruct
and brake slow down

its not my native language but i knew this.

the their there theyre thing nobrainer

wacker.popeln
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Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:38 pm

Postby wacker.popeln » Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:05 am

just try to put this back into hte mind of people.

MOS-HAFNIUM coils or mos-hafnium-tantalum

when the majority of heating comes from coiling and this beats graphene wihtout murder cooling and has some of the highest melting points of all materials i think it makes sense.

i would consider to make an edgy coil wiht some bumps in it

here

like riflings or obstacle
when we keep electrons longer around the coils maybe we can avoid some discharges. silly?

tehre may be pits of electrons like a rifled electron ball (coneish ball)

Image

http://s7.postimage.org/l2punxg23/polywellquestion.png

ladajo
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Postby ladajo » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:33 pm

Halfnium likes to eat neutrons, so there may also be a benefit/degradation form that perspective dependant on the fuel process. The activation issue over time should also be considered.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

wacker.popeln
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Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:38 pm

Postby wacker.popeln » Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:01 pm

ladajo wrote:Halfnium likes to eat neutrons, so there may also be a benefit/degradation form that perspective dependant on the fuel process. The activation issue over time should also be considered.


interesting, i didnt know that about hafnium.
the polywell i think is about aneutronic fusion hte proton boron fusion

ithink its a benefit. in theory its extremely heat resistant, and beats graphene in conductivity

KitemanSA
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Postby KitemanSA » Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:10 pm

Wouldn't the p-B ratio be one of the knobs to turn in the tuning of the actual design?
By that I mean that the actual ratio desired may be somewhat dependant on the final sphericity of the well in that machine.

wacker.popeln
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Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:38 pm

Postby wacker.popeln » Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:15 pm

KitemanSA wrote:Wouldn't the p-B ratio be one of the knobs to turn in the tuning of the actual design?
By that I mean that the actual ratio desired may be somewhat dependant on the final sphericity of the well in that machine.


theres many that think aneutronic fusion is a myth
i think the navy is not a bunch of iddiots to fund it

ladajo
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Location: North East Coast

Postby ladajo » Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:30 pm

wacker.popeln wrote:
ladajo wrote:Halfnium likes to eat neutrons, so there may also be a benefit/degradation form that perspective dependant on the fuel process. The activation issue over time should also be considered.


interesting, i didnt know that about hafnium.
the polywell i think is about aneutronic fusion hte proton boron fusion

ithink its a benefit. in theory its extremely heat resistant, and beats graphene in conductivity


Yes it is very heat resistant. But it is a neutron sponge, and it does get activated.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

wacker.popeln
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:38 pm

Postby wacker.popeln » Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:32 pm

ladajo wrote:
Yes it is very heat resistant. But it is a neutron sponge, and it does get activated.


hmm
beryllium coat?


Image

http://s7.postimage.org/4v2fcgauz/polywellquestion.png


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