Heres the thread, that kicks things off:
and heres the WL-theory paper again:tomclarke wrote:Yes. Actually, I have just read the critique from Hagelstein & the answer from W&L.Giorgio wrote:Are you referring to their theorized coherent proton oscillation mode?tomclarke wrote: I think the big gap in their paper is how they propose the slow neutrons are generated. They need relativistic electrons and blithely asume that these can exist in a lattice, without considering quantitatively what would need to happen for their mechanism (SPPs) to do this. they have never revistied this initial weak point in their argument.
Tom
I have to remember covariant forms of maxwell's equations to work out which is correct - Hagelstein says the mass change should depend on on the transverse component of electric field, W&L says it should depend on entire field. Difference is many orders of magnitude - if Hagelstein is right W&L don't work.
One thing. W&L claim, in their refutation of Hagelstein, Mev electrons are not unusual in lattices because static electricity charge transfer can lead to such charge separation voltages in Van der Graaf machines.
This is (a) bad physical intuition & (b) not true.
The voltage at charge separation is small. It then increases as separated charges are pulled apart and capacitance is reduced. In a Van der Graaf the 10Mev energy comes from the power which drives the belt - as the charge goes up the belt so it gains potential energy.
Of course Mev electrons in a lattice are totally weird.
More later if I manage to do 4-vector stuff properly. But I bet somone here can do it quicker than me:
Hagelstein's critique:
http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/WL/ ... sShift.pdf
http://iris.lib.neu.edu/cgi/viewcontent ... s_fac_pubs
my own thoughts:
WL-theory seems to posit only an enabling machanism for the possibility of nuclear reaction or transmutation to occure - it says nothig about those reactions themselves, simply:
and on the subject of possible cause to start the whole process (heavy electrons), says::W&L wrote:"The resulting ultra low momentum neutrons catalyze a
variety of different nuclear reactions, creating complex
nuclear reaction networks and related transmutations
over time. The prompt hard gamma radiation which
accompanies the neutron absorption is absorbed by
the heavy electrons which drastically lowers the radiation frequencies
of the finally produced photons..."
on the plane-wave/4-momentum question:W&L wrote:"Heavy electrons appear on the surface of a metallic hydride in non-equilibrium situations. Sufficient conditions
include (i) intense LASER radiation incident on a suitably
rough metallic hydride surface, (ii) high chemical
potential differences across the surface due electrolytic
voltage gradients and (iii) high chemical potential differences
across the surface due to pressure gradients. Under
such non-equilibrium conditions, weakly coupled surface
plasmon polariton oscillations and proton oscillations induce
an oscillating electromagnetic field"
- i'll just have to take their word on that unless someone cares to check their algebra.W&L wrote:"Only the heavy electrons can absorb a hard
photon with four momentum ¯hk emitting n photons each
with four momentum ¯hq."
then, later on absorbtion:
andW&L wrote:"Especially note that the heavy electron current response
function depends on the soft radiation field which
renormalized the electron mass in the first place."
finally:W&L wrote:"Thus, the hard photon is absorbed at a distance of less
than a nanometer away from where it was first created.
This constitutes the central result of this work."
and:W&L wrote:"The resulting ultra low momentum neutrons catalyze a
variety of different nuclear reactions, creating complex
nuclear reaction networks and related transmutations
over time. The prompt hard gamma radiation which
accompanies the neutron absorption is absorbed by
the heavy electrons which drastically lowers the radiation frequencies
of the finally produced photons..."
sorry for all the re-quotes, seemed the best way to sum up what i saw as the salient elements.W&L wrote:"Thus, the heavy surface electrons can act as a
gamma ray shield. Once the non-equilibrium conditions
creating heavy electrons cease, ultra low momentum neutron
production and gamma absorption both stop very
rapidly"
too many assumptions? not so sure. i get the idea most of the phenomenon modelled are well observed/characterised already in the lab.
lack of (theory-speficic-) data - agreed, i think. have yet to look through the Hagelstein critique, but you would have thought it to be the type of thing labs all around the world would be looking to verify or debunk. (some more googling might yieid).
applicability to Rossi - whether or not the isotopical inventories match, i dont trust his data. will take a close look at Miley's and others. But that maybe outside of the WL theory itself.
applicability to an account of LENR phenomenon in general - well, seems quite a good place to start to me - even if it is 'mistaken' in some detail, its working in the right language, at the right scale. maybe the 'revised- WL', who knows.
