non-local effects on ion-electron energy transfer

Discuss how polywell fusion works; share theoretical questions and answers.

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alexjrgreen
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Post by alexjrgreen »

D Tibbets wrote:ankovacs, I think your discription of the electrons all being at the Wiffleball border is wrong. The electrons are injected straight towards
the center and bounce back and forth between the (near) center and the Wiffleball border, slowing as they approach the center and speeding up as they aproach the Wiffleball border, then turning and starting over. This is because of the mutual repulsion of the electrons that are always more prevelent than the ions (ie- not a net neutral plasma). Assuming the Wiffleball magnetic border collisions are elastic, this will continue untill scattering collisions with other electrons and ions thermalizes the distribution. The only time I would expect to see the electrons clustered near the Wiffleball border would be when all of their radial velocities have been dampened, and the ions are also clustered in this area- there is no potential well left. This would be the end stage of the charged particle distribution (I think) untill they eventually leaked out of the magrid. It is the continous injection of new electrons (and restored recycled electrons, and annealed ions) competing against this tendency that maintains the potential well for long enough and cheeply enough to allow net power- or not, depenting on interpratation and valididity of the claimed processes.

Dan Tibbets
Dan,

Look at the picture on the emc2 website. It shows the electrons in a wiffleball disclosed by fluorescence from a low vacuum Helium atmosphere.

Notice the lack of radial velocity...

In normal operation the wiffleball is allowed to form before ions are injected.
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KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

alexjrgreen wrote: Look at the picture on the emc2 website. It shows the electrons in a wiffleball disclosed by fluorescence from a low vacuum Helium atmosphere.

Notice the lack of radial velocity...
Unh... how might I do that? Or are you being facetious?

alexjrgreen
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Post by alexjrgreen »

KitemanSA wrote:
alexjrgreen wrote: Look at the picture on the emc2 website. It shows the electrons in a wiffleball disclosed by fluorescence from a low vacuum Helium atmosphere.

Notice the lack of radial velocity...
Unh... how might I do that? Or are you being facetious?
The electrons that fall out of the hole in the wiffleball opposite the centre of a coil are accelerated towards the magrid. The overwhelming majority of them get turned around when they're only as far past the magrid as the wiffleball is inside it.

So they have very little radial velocity.

This makes sense because the electrons in the wiffleball satisfy a beta=1 condition with the magnetic field.
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TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

How interesting, Earthtech lists experiments featuring Tajmar (of the frame-dragging experiment) and Mills (of Blacklightpower).

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

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TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

Heh.
CONCLUSIONS:

Once again, our results do not match Mills' results. Our gas flow measurements are in sharp contrast with Mills' assumptions about the behavior of his cell. Combined with the fact that he did not actually measure the gas flow from his cell, this at least raises the possibility that Mills' assumptions were wrong.

The large discrepancy between our heat output results remains a mystery. Either there was something seriously wrong with Mills' calorimetry or our experiment is simply not producing any excess heat. The latter is certainly a real possibility and, in that case, we are essentially at the mercy of Dr. Mills to correct that problem, having replicated the experiment to the best of our knowledge and ability.

Until we receive such assistance from Dr. Mills, we reluctantly conclude...with uniformly negative results...our efforts to replicate his light-water Ni electrolysis experiments.

D Tibbets
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Post by D Tibbets »

alexjrgreen wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:
alexjrgreen wrote: Look at the picture on the emc2 website. It shows the electrons in a wiffleball disclosed by fluorescence from a low vacuum Helium atmosphere.

Notice the lack of radial velocity...
Unh... how might I do that? Or are you being facetious?
The electrons that fall out of the hole in the wiffleball opposite the centre of a coil are accelerated towards the magrid. The overwhelming majority of them get turned around when they're only as far past the magrid as the wiffleball is inside it.

So they have very little radial velocity.

This makes sense because the electrons in the wiffleball satisfy a beta=1 condition with the magnetic field.
You lost me. A single picture will show the distribution of recombining charged particles/ neutrals. It shows the limits due to the magnetic fields. It says nothing about how the particles got there. Radial motions, random thermalized motions, monoenergetic nature, etc. The lack of bands in the glow might suggest no gross bunching into waves, at least if the exposure was short enough. If the spikes extended a short distance beyond the magrids, then quickly became much dimmer, I could see an argument that this represented recirculation. The absence of such a drop off may not mean much due to several reasons.
I do not understand your Beta= 1 statement. Certainly this is when the claimed Wiffleball is most effective, but I don't see why this would imply that most electrons are clustered at the Wiffleball border. The new electrons or recycled electrons shoot towards the center because the speed imparted by the pos charged magrid dominates over the tendancy of charged particles to follow along the nearly parellel magnetic field lines in this area. There is some defocusing due to the field lines curving as mentioned by Bussard. That is why the initial potential well is only about 80-85 percent as strong as the drive potential (eg: WB6 with a 12,000 volt charge on the magrid and a 10,000 volt (eV) potential well).


Dan Tibbets
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alexjrgreen
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Post by alexjrgreen »

D Tibbets wrote:If the spikes extended a short distance beyond the magrids, then quickly became much dimmer, I could see an argument that this represented recirculation.
They do, and it does. Look at the picture on the emc2 website.
D Tibbets wrote:I do not understand your Beta= 1 statement. Certainly this is when the claimed Wiffleball is most effective, but I don't see why this would imply that most electrons are clustered at the Wiffleball border.
Beta=1 where the electron pressure equals the magnetic field pressure. Since the electron pressure is exerted by their radial velocities, at beta=1 their radial velocity should be zero.

Like charges repel, so you would expect the electrons to try to get as far apart as possible. That would place them at the surface of the wiffleball.
D Tibbets wrote:The new electrons or recycled electrons shoot towards the center because the speed imparted by the pos charged magrid dominates over the tendancy of charged particles to follow along the nearly parellel magnetic field lines in this area.
Once the recirculating electrons pass the magrid on their way back, both the magrid and the wiffleball decelerate them.
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blaisepascal
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Post by blaisepascal »

alexjrgreen wrote: Beta=1 where the electron pressure equals the magnetic field pressure. Since the electron pressure is exerted by their radial velocities, at beta=1 their radial velocity should be zero.
Surely that ideal of radial velocity = 0 at beta = 1 should therefore hold only when magnetic field pressure = 0 then? I.E., magnetic field pressure Pm is a monotonically increasing function of magnetic field strength with Pm(B = 0) = 0, and electron pressure Pe is a monotonically increasing function of electron radial velocity with Pm(v=0) = 0. And beta is the ratio between the two (I believe). Therefore, if beta=1, as v-->0, so must B.

Since we aren't dealing with B=0, v must be nonzero.

Or am I misunderstanding the math?

TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

Surely that ideal of radial velocity = 0 at beta = 1 should therefore hold only when magnetic field pressure = 0 then?
Well, no, if B was zero they would fly out (radial velocity > 0). It's B that reduces their radial velocity to zero.
Like charges repel, so you would expect the electrons to try to get as far apart as possible. That would place them at the surface of the wiffleball.
It's a dynamic picture, according to Rick.

blaisepascal
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Post by blaisepascal »

TallDave wrote:
Surely that ideal of radial velocity = 0 at beta = 1 should therefore hold only when magnetic field pressure = 0 then?
Well, no, if B was zero they would fly out (radial velocity > 0). It's B that reduces their radial velocity to zero.
If the radial velocity is 0, then what is causing the electron pressure?

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

KitemanSA wrote:
alexjrgreen wrote: Look at the picture on the emc2 website. It shows the electrons in a wiffleball disclosed by fluorescence from a low vacuum Helium atmosphere.

Notice the lack of radial velocity...
Unh... how might I do that? Or are you being facetious?
:oops: :oops: Jeez, it is amazing what a tangle one can weave for oneself when one reads "radial" and thinks "tangential". D'Oh!!! :oops: :oops:

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

KitemanSA wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:
alexjrgreen wrote: Look at the picture on the emc2 website. It shows the electrons in a wiffleball disclosed by fluorescence from a low vacuum Helium atmosphere.

Notice the lack of radial velocity...
Unh... how might I do that? Or are you being facetious?
:oops: :oops: Jeez, it is amazing what a tangle one can weave for oneself when one reads "radial" and thinks "tangential". D'Oh!!! :oops: :oops:
I was wondering about that.
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alexjrgreen
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Post by alexjrgreen »

This is what I see:

Image
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D Tibbets
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Post by D Tibbets »

alexjrgreen wrote:
D Tibbets wrote:If the spikes extended a short distance beyond the magrids, then quickly became much dimmer, I could see an argument that this represented recirculation.
They do, and it does. Look at the picture on the emc2 website.
D Tibbets wrote:I do not understand your Beta= 1 statement. Certainly this is when the claimed Wiffleball is most effective, but I don't see why this would imply that most electrons are clustered at the Wiffleball border.
Beta=1 where the electron pressure equals the magnetic field pressure. Since the electron pressure is exerted by their radial velocities, at beta=1 their radial velocity should be zero.

Like charges repel, so you would expect the electrons to try to get as far apart as possible. That would place them at the surface of the wiffleball.
D Tibbets wrote:The new electrons or recycled electrons shoot towards the center because the speed imparted by the pos charged magrid dominates over the tendancy of charged particles to follow along the nearly parellel magnetic field lines in this area.
Once the recirculating electrons pass the magrid on their way back, both the magrid and the wiffleball decelerate them.
I believe there are several errors in your thinking. The electrons are injected towards the center, reverse due to mutual electron repulsion as they converge and fly towards the edge. Ignoring scattering reactions, these electrons fly radially outward, pushing against the magnetic field untill the magnetic field is dense enouth to stop the electrons. But the stopage is a pause and reversal. So long as the electron velocity is high enough as it reaches the magnetic border the electron performs a half orbit a gyroradius wide. Since there is no, or very little B filed strength on the inside (towards the center) of the ordbit, the electron effectively bounces off the magnetic field, reversing its direction towards the center. The electron will not be capured by the magnetic field line unless the electrons velocity is so slow that it's gyroradius is smaller than magnetic field strength gradient in that area (I think I said that right). As the electrons lose energy and their vectors become more random, the will tend to pile up near the magnetic border (talking about a pure electron cloud, once ions are introduced it becomes more complicated. Think of it as a game of billiards as opposed to a game of darts.

The charged magrid has no electrostatic effect on the ions and electrons inside of it, the only effect is when they are outside of the magrid. I learned this from interactions on this forum. Think about Gauss's law, and faraday cages.
Read this thread, It drifts some, but addresses some of my then misconceptions about the issue:
viewtopic.php?t=1448

Dan Tibbets
Last edited by D Tibbets on Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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