Dumb question - electrons...

Discuss how polywell fusion works; share theoretical questions and answers.

Moderators: tonybarry, MSimon

drmike
Posts: 825
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:54 pm
Contact:

Post by drmike »

There are a lot of ways to think about this. From an EE perspective, the current links flux lines and from a physicists perspective the gyro radius is a function of the B field.

The ideas of "flux lines" and "B field" help us visulize the observed behavior. As the B field increases, flux lines get closer together. The gyro radius shrinks - or you can say the particles circulate around the same number of flux lines and since the flux density is increasing, the particle orbits shrink. Same obversvation - different way to describe it.

Electrons inside the wiffle ball are mostly trapped. Only a few in the "loss cone" velocity region will escape the center, and the electrostatic field from the MaGrid helps to bounce them back. But that assumes the B field is high enough to hold the plasma. If it really runs in a beta = 1 mode (beta is ratio of magnetic field pressure to plasma pressure) then I would guess stability is a question of electrostatics only.

One of the things that makes plasmas so much fun and challenging is that the electric field extends across all space. You can't really think of a "stray electron". You can kinda think about bulk currents - if the density is high enough MHD (magnetohydrodynamics) works reasonably well. The whole system of particles and fields is all one big huge mess that affects itself continuously.

If you really want to see how weird plasmas can be, look up lightning. High density plasma does what ever it feels like, when if feels like it. Sometimes it takes the copper wire to ground, some times it blows holes thru walls instead. Another thing to play with is an arc welder. Just playing with an arc will give you a lot of feel for what goes on inside a fusion reactor of any kind. It squirms, it jumps, it's amazing and it's fun!

Oh yeah - put a lit candle in a microwave and fire it off at even 600 Watts. Very cool plasma balls will form. Not exactly high density, but fun to watch! Don't expect to save the microwave for cooking :)

zretawt
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:26 am

Post by zretawt »

drmike,
Great, thanks for the insight. I will try the lit candle experiment today just after I try my Schroedinger cat in the microwave experiment (lol just kidding).

It's still not entirely clear to me what causes electrons travelling along the magnetic field to return to the well. Why wouldn't they continue circulating along the field?

Also, what is the correct term to describe the spiralling motion (i.e. gyro radial motion) VS the term to describe the "macro" trajectory of moving about the entire magnet?

I suppose I need to go back and study the function of the magrid....

Tom Ligon
Posts: 1871
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:23 am
Location: Northern Virginia
Contact:

Post by Tom Ligon »

Be fun to see what that candle flame does if you could get an 875 gauss magnetic field around it!

ECR at microwave oven frequency in a plasma!

Definitely for an old microwave oven!

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

Tom,

That is about the field you can get from a WW2 Magnetron magnet. I don't know what current magnetron tubes run. However they are cheap enough.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Tom Ligon
Posts: 1871
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:23 am
Location: Northern Virginia
Contact:

Post by Tom Ligon »

MSimon,

I have a couple of ceramic speaker magnets out in the garage that ought to hit about that. We also hit levels like that fairly easily in PXL-1, while injecting microwaves from a microwave oven tube. A microwave oven frequency of 2.45 GHz will produce electron cyclotron resonance at 875 gauss. You could easily see the topology at that field strength inside PXL because it lit up.

In fact, the magnetron tubes are simple diodes that have a pair of magnets with about that field strength between them. The electrons naturally want to spin at around 2-3 GHz in the field, and tuning cavities hold them to the desired frequency. All this from one of the last vacuum tubes in common consumer use, for sale as a repair part for about $45.

The power supplies are very simple, a step up transformer driving a voltage doubler missing the output capacitor, so it pulses at around 3500 V. Current varies with rated power, but they're typically run at something like 300 mA. The heaters are powered by floating windings and are usually around 5V.

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

Tom,

As in cheap enough I meant free. i.e. go around on garbage day and look for junked microwaves. Or put an ad in your local free weekly and offer to cart them away.

I got my first computer monitor (a junked TV set) that way.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MrE
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:55 am
Location: Guam

Post by MrE »

My philosophy is to learn from others before applying effort that will cost anything more than thought and casual calculations.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... arch_type=

A search for "candle in microwave" on youtube will bring up voluminous videos of magnificent microwaves doing daring duty for curious candidates.

:-)

drmike
Posts: 825
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:54 pm
Contact:

Post by drmike »

It would be great fun to put some ceramic magnets next to the candle. I'll have to suggest that to my kids so they will force me to do it. :D
zretawt wrote:It's still not entirely clear to me what causes electrons travelling along the magnetic field to return to the well. Why wouldn't they continue circulating along the field?
If the velocity perpendicular to the field line is high enough, the particle will have to conserve energy as the field increases, and it will give up parallel motion in favor of perpendicular. At some point it has no more parallel motion, and it takes very little to push it back. This is called a "mirror" because the particle motion is reflected back. Particles with too much parallel velocity will escape, and this called the "loss cone" velocity - it comes from plotting the parallel vs perpendicular velocities - you get a cone shape in the plot.
Also, what is the correct term to describe the spiralling motion (i.e. gyro radial motion) VS the term to describe the "macro" trajectory of moving about the entire magnet?
Gyro radius is usually for particles, current density is for bulk motion. Different names get applied to different kinds of currents, but it's all just bulk motion. Most physicists use the math terms, so you might here "j cross b" or "grad p cross b" etc. Just getting a handle on the different scales is a big path to understanding how messy it all is!

Post Reply