Event: Nuclear Fusion: Has Its Time Finally Arrived?

[Skipjack]

What innovations of value have come from ITER?

You would probably get more bang for the public money wasted by digging a giant hole and filling it in.

Material science was a huge aspect of the research done for ITER, if not the main aspect. The "ITER- Like Wall" is actually a scientific term now.
They also have developed much better code for the simulation of plasma (some of which is used by several teams now, from what I understand).
People make the mistake to think of ITER as just the reactor they are building in France now. Much of ITER is happening in laboratories elsewhere and that is where a good part of the cost goes to as well.
Again, as Dr B said "ITER is this hugely expensive proposition that even its proponents don't think will ever lead to a practical reactor, but it is really good science".
Now LENR... I dont think it has given us anything useful so far.

Edit:

Cryogenics, super conductors, plasma theory, materials, and the list goes on.

ladajo beat me to it
What he said

[Crawdaddy]

Cryogenics, super conductors, plasma theory, materials, and the list goes on.

Sorry I can't find any references to innovations made by the iter project in these areas.

Specifically what innovations are you talking about?

[Giorgio]

Is not advancements made by ITER directly but from ITER founded projects.
And mind you, I am not a supporter of ITER at all, but investments in researches coming from ITER founds indeed advanced many technical fields, especially materials and superconductors.
I still think that direct research investment in these areas would have been better than founding through ITER, but is better than nothing.

[Skipjack]

Cryogenics, super conductors, plasma theory, materials, and the list goes on.

Sorry I can't find any references to innovations made by the iter project in these areas.

Specifically what innovations are you talking about?

So you have not heard of the "ITER Like Wall" yet? It is being installed at other experimental fusion reactors now. JET was among the first to get it and is using it (and other upgrades, that are in part derived from ITER research) for upcoming break even experiments.

[Crawdaddy]

Is not advancements made by ITER directly but from ITER founded projects.
And mind you, I am not a supporter of ITER at all, but investments in researches coming from ITER founds indeed advanced many technical fields, especially materials and superconductors.
I still think that direct research investment in these areas would have been better than founding through ITER, but is better than nothing.

Actually, as a professional material scientist, I can say with authority that the most interesting advances in materials and superconductors have absolutely nothing to do with ITER. Furthermore, it is readily apparent from examining the literature that the state of the art in these fields is being advanced for fractions of pennies on the dollar in ITER funding terms.

I remember attending a seminar on the topic of this proposition in 1995. The presenter was crucified by the physics faculty on the fundamental physical challenges associated with tokamak designs, people actually laughed out loud. The project is absurd.

The well known privately funded companies working in this field and experiments like the W7X are outclassing the relic that is ITER in embarrassing fashion. It is time to put this boondoggle out of its misery. It is the Donald Trump of experiments, it will destroy the credibility the field.

[Skipjack]

Is not advancements made by ITER directly but from ITER founded projects.
And mind you, I am not a supporter of ITER at all, but investments in researches coming from ITER founds indeed advanced many technical fields, especially materials and superconductors.
I still think that direct research investment in these areas would have been better than founding through ITER, but is better than nothing.

Actually, as a professional material scientist, I can say with authority that the most interesting advances in materials and superconductors have absolutely nothing to do with ITER. Furthermore, it is readily apparent from examining the literature that the state of the art in these fields is being advanced for fractions of pennies on the dollar in ITER funding terms.

I remember attending a seminar on the topic of this proposition in 1995. The presenter was crucified by the physics faculty on the fundamental physical challenges associated with tokamak designs, people actually laughed out loud. The project is absurd.

The well known privately funded companies working in this field and experiments like the W7X are outclassing the relic that is ITER in embarrassing fashion. It is time to put this boondoggle out of its misery. It is the Donald Trump of experiments, it will destroy the credibility the field.

Well, I am not saying that the results were great for the money spent, but there were results and they are useful. The material science is definitely coming from ITER. The better simulation code as well. There are other things that were developed for Toks that are just as useful for other designs. And Toks might yet be viable after all, as we can see with more compact and higher beta designs by the UW, MIT and Tokamak Energy (using HT super conductors, e.g.).

[Giorgio]

@ Crawdaddy
What Skypjack said is exactly what I meant.

You said "No Innovation", which is not true, that's why we just pointed out that there was innovations (and some also pretty good). Was they worth the money spent to get them? Probably no, but is better than nothing considering that we have no power at all to prevent this monstrosity from being built.

[ladajo]

I agree. The spending is inefficient, and producing advances in a number of fields. I also don't agree with the project from a resources perspective. That said, it is driving hot plasma work forward, which is the most proven path. Who knows? Maybe there will be a future downscalng in cost and resourcing with a follow on design. We will see.
LENR has not really produced anything yet in my opinion. It may yet, but so far not so much.

[Skipjack]

That said, it is driving hot plasma work forward, which is the most proven path. Who knows? Maybe there will be a future downscalng in cost and resourcing with a follow on design. We will see.

There are a lot of concepts for more compact Tokamaks. The ARC by the MIT (which unfortunately lost all funding), the Dynomak by the UW (which unfortunately also ran out of funding) and in the UK, we have Tokamak Energy, which seems to have some funding (not sure how much) and is making good progress with their compact Tokamak. It seems like the availability of high temperature super conductors allows to reduce the size of Tokamaks a great deal and makes compact spherical Tokamaks possible. I am still not a big fan of the concept compared to others, but it looks a lot more viable now than it did a few years ago. This is why I am saying that the ITER reactor will be outdated by the time it is finished (if it is not already), it might be cheaper to just update existing smaller and medium sized Tokamaks with ITER- Like Walls and super conducting cables. I would definitely look into giving JET another upgrade. Seeing how much they have been able to upgrade that for a relatively small amount of money, it might be quite feasible and probably cheaper than building the monster in Cadarache.
Either way, I think should all hope that someone will make break even before the end of the decade, or funding for fusion might dry up.

[ladajo]

This is why I am saying that the ITER reactor will be outdated by the time it is finished (if it is not already), it might be cheaper to just update existing smaller and medium sized Tokamaks with ITER- Like Walls and super conducting cables. I would definitely look into giving JET another upgrade.

Yup, very probably; Maybe; And, I am not so sure given the base design's ability to handle persistent radiation and activation. JET is, as I understand, more or less at the end of its update rope.

[Skipjack]

This is why I am saying that the ITER reactor will be outdated by the time it is finished (if it is not already), it might be cheaper to just update existing smaller and medium sized Tokamaks with ITER- Like Walls and super conducting cables. I would definitely look into giving JET another upgrade.

Yup, very probably; Maybe; And, I am not so sure given the base design's ability to handle persistent radiation and activation. JET is, as I understand, more or less at the end of its update rope.

Well, it did get a new wall...
And they have been repeatedly updating it since it was first fired up. I would not quite write it off yet. Also, you might just replace the entire vessel and magnets but keep the rest of the (massive) surrounding structure and equipment there, which I am sure makes a large part of the total cost of the facility.
Might still be cheaper and quicker than building the big ITER in France. I may be wrong, though.
Anyway, if they will really shit down JET completely after 2020, then maybe a company like TE will take over the facilities. They are right next door and they also build Tokamaks. So it might be just what they need.

[ladajo]

Probably worth at least running the numbers on it.
I do think there is an activation issue though for the proposed operating regimes that they are looking at. It was built from the ground up without that in mind. This was a follow-on brilliant idea as some of the ITER driven technology was worked out.

Fundamentally, ITER, as we know it, is not going to be viable as a production device basis. However, I do think there is a decent change that technology will mature over the run so that by DEMO, we are looking at sufficient advancements to scale down production units required resourcing. I'd give it 30/70, or maybe 40/60 odds for that. I have always said they are on the build it and we will figure out how to do it better the next time engineering plan. Some call it spiral development... I call it expensive.
We shall see.