Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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D Tibbets
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Post by D Tibbets »

DeltaV wrote:Conjecture --
The larger diameter of the central coil increases the diameter and volume of the fusion region, compared to having a smaller central coil, making it less "2-lobed". Off-axis fusions become more likely, at the cost of higher central coil current. Coil currents will be tuned to obtain the optimum (highest fusion rate) compromise between active region volume and density. I'm guessing that the coil on the right in the T4 picture below is the central coil.

Image
......
The image of the plasma with the central coil on the right is consistent with my descriptions of the setup with essentially a linear variation of the Polywell. The properties of quasi spherical shape, favorable B field countours to prevent edge instabilities, high Beta, narrow line cusps, potential central focus are preserved. What is not apparent is if the plasma is neutral or electron rich. Mention of a potential well suggests it is electron rich- thus it is also a non neutral plasma. These characteristics are core to the Polywell concept - or any other that wishes to confine ions in a small reactor (excluding inertially confined or very short pulsation reactors like laser confinement or DPF?) due to ExB considerations.

Descriptions of more complex plasma confinement shapes- fields are perhaps consistent with the limited views and information but I wonder if they could work. Would the ExB losses be tolerable. It seems that there would be a lot of dense plasma near magnet can surfaces, and how would a potential well work in such a complicated plasma distribution? .

High Beta implies relatively high density which implies magnified ExB concerns for ions- unless they are confined in a potential well and kept out of the magnetic domain (?). At some point even the electron ExB losses could become dominate if the bulk plasma is to close to magnetic surfaces.

High Beta is possible in part, I believe, due to the quasi spherical shape of the contained plasma. The plasma pressure pushes outward symetrically against all magnetic surfaces equally. There are no weak points- excluding the cusps which are much less vunerable to the outwardly directed pressure, at least up to Beta exceeds 1.

It currently seems likely to me that recirculation in this concept may have greater importance than even in the Polywell. The 4th and 5th end magnets may reflect greater recirculation harvesting and control than in the Polywell. The illustration of a two magnet mirror machine, while generally considered as inadequate for containment might conceivably work if recirculation can be made good enough. This of course also requires an electron rich plasma. The electrons escape the magnetic containment, but recirculate while the ions are effectively contained by the potential well due to the maintained excess electrons. While the charged particles inside are within a 'Wiffleball' and thus non magnetic (not following magnetic lines), externally the conditions are low Beta, the B field gradient is shallow enough that charged particles (electrons) are captured on field lines and will flow around to the end point cusps and back in . Again the progressive upscattering of electrons would have to be controlled in some way. In this concept, the plasma (at least the electrons) is surrounding the magnets as quoted in the article.

This brings up a consideration of recirculation in general and electron upscatter also. In the Mini B and WB8(?) the electron guns seem to be at high negative voltage, while the magrid is presumed to be at ground. Here any electron that escaped would not have the high positive potential on the magrid to stop it and reverse it back through the same cusp like in WB6. With WB6 if the electron is upscattered enough it will lose a portion of it's outward KE but retain enough to reach the top of the magnetic loop outside the magrid, and then fall towards an adjacent grid, picking up additional KE as it does due to the positive charge on the magrid( back to its original already excessive energy). This can be a problem and so the upscattered electron must be picked off by a surface before it reaches the peak of the magnetic loop (surface such as a Faraday cage).

But with the magnets at zero potential (grounded) the escaped electrons would mostly stick on the magnetic line loops and renter an adjacent cusp at the same energy at which it escaped. Up scattered electrons would retain their excess energy, but at least they would not pick up an additional boost from a positively charged magrid. Collisional processes would complicate things, but to first order this may describe things. Art Carlson argued that progressive electron upscattering would destroy the system so there has to be some mechanism to prevent this. WB6 did this simply and directly by removing them . With the full looping recirculation system some other means for slowing or removing these upscattered electrons would be necessary. Simply removing them by intercepting a wall on the larger magnetic loops (which the higher energy electrons would follow- much like a mass spectrometer) might do this. This would be similar to the WB6 pick off mechanism but in a more selective fashion. I think this could also apply to the Polywell, thus satisfaction of my recirculation concerns about a grounded magrid. The collisional effects (such as electrons being scattered to the extent that they mirror without reenterering the interior) though may cause additional problems and any external grids for direct conversion would also complicate the system.

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

D Tibbets
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Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:52 am

Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Post by D Tibbets »

A picture of McGuire and the Lockheed test chamber linked from the first post in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5647

shows apparatus hanging off the sides and ends of the chamber that hint at possible injection schemes. The two side angled injectors(?) would match the the mirror illustration.

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

mattman
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Post by mattman »

Hello,

A couple points:

1. Who are these people?

Image

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2. The Patent Application has some good diagrams of what they are doing.

Image

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It looks like they change the B field by switching on and off the big and small rings... I think this oscillates the plasma - causing heating. That is a really interesting idea.


3. The promotional movie on YouTube tells you next to nothing. You can see they tried to hide allot. For instance they cleared out the vacuum chamber for the shot. They show the power supply. The show what looks to be a fusor (?) in a spherical vacuum chamber. Here are some good shots:

Image

What kind of battery/capacitor is a NSB 09 ?

Image

About how many batteries/capacitors are shown here?

Image

How long is this chamber in meters? Where is the injection? Where are the sensors? What sensors do you use? Langmuir probes?

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Can you estimate ring size, based on the size of Tom's hand?

4. Finally, this is a cusp confinement system. Why have we not started that topic on Wikipedia? Why have we not dug through the 200 papers on this topic and translated that information to the web?

paperburn1
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Post by paperburn1 »

I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

paperburn1
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Post by paperburn1 »

http://www.sppl.umd.edu/
I think one of them is from Ray Sedwick's class
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

mattman
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Post by mattman »

I think Lockheed blew it. They should have published real, actual experimental data.

We do not need more cold fusion BS.

We need real science. Science is peer reviewed publications, with verifiable observations.. not press releases.

You can do press releases AFTER you publish data.

They might have great technology, but they handled this poorly.

paperburn1
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Post by paperburn1 »

the Battery is a battery capable of high rate discharges rated 3900 amps
http://www.northstarsitetel.com/1.0.1.0 ... -10-03.pdf
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

choff
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Post by choff »

POPS+Polywell+Mirror machine+Tibbar Tech?
CHoff

birchoff
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Post by birchoff »

mattman wrote:I think Lockheed blew it. They should have published real, actual experimental data.

We do not need more cold fusion BS.

We need real science. Science is peer reviewed publications, with verifiable observations.. not press releases.

You can do press releases AFTER you publish data.

They might have great technology, but they handled this poorly.
not sure how a company who can clearly fund themselves "blew it", so to speak. I agree this is a marketing campaign and as such I think the PR department did a fantastic job. Now all the people who dont follow this stuff for a living are aware of LM delivering on fusion. They may not hit their proposed deadline. Hell they may not even get the thing to work. But that is not what a marketing campaign is for. Its clear to me this is more about drumming up awareness and less about anything else.

mvanwink5
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Post by mvanwink5 »

Joel Rogers' simulation is not data and clearly LM has both, so Joel should be asking, "Where did my simulation go wrong?" as surely McGuire's team is moving forward.
You can do press releases AFTER you publish data.
Actually, you can do the press releases after you get the patents. Further, all that is claimed is that they are working on the project, no? Mattman, thanks, by the way for transferring the magnetic field lines pictures.

I am unsure about publishing names that weren't published by LM or the person's themselves, what is up with that???????
Counting the days to commercial fusion. It is not that long now.

Robthebob
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Post by Robthebob »

Immediate Concerns.

1. I counted 6 cusp exits, 4, yes 4 LINE CUSPS! (plus 2 point cusps at the ends. In the truncated cube polywell, you have 6 point cusps, at each face, and 8 quasi-point cusps, at each corner? But no line cusps)

2. High beta means they're gonna be on the wiffleball effect train right? Is the enhanced cusp confinement going to make 4 line cusp losses be manageable?

3. Enhanced cusp confinement closes the door, it doesnt funnel (the plasma outside of the room can't get in just as the same as the plasma inside of the room can't get out), so... is this just a not as good polywell? Why have the other parts? (The linear machine portion, the magnetic mirror, etc)

4. They talked about recirculation in the article, but that's not what you want to rely on anyways, you want to be on the wiffleball effect train; when the door closes, either all of plasma outside of the room are just losses or they somehow all got inside the room before the door fully closed.

5. What exactly does the linear machine features do to help the cusp machine features (and without the confinement improvement (that you can get from) of a cusp machine, the CFR would just be a linear magnetic confinement machine with your everyday radially decreasing B field strength, all that jazz.)
Throwing my life away for this whole Fusion mess.

mvanwink5
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Post by mvanwink5 »

"partnering" = cheap grad students? :D
Sounds like a good deal for LM and students. In undergraduate engineering we used to call them co-op students.
Counting the days to commercial fusion. It is not that long now.

JoeP
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Post by JoeP »

Great to see a technology related to Polywell get some attention and some testing by a major firm. Polywell might get some VC interest and investment.

mvanwink5
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Post by mvanwink5 »

Another article, Science Mag "SCIENCE INSIDER" not particularly well done, but indicative of the splash from LM. Hopefully EMC2 will get enhanced VC exposure, they deserve it.
http://news.sciencemag.org/physics/2014 ... on-machine
Counting the days to commercial fusion. It is not that long now.

DeltaV
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Re: Aviation Week on the Lockheed Skunkworks CFR

Post by DeltaV »

Black lab coats? Oh, it's USAF blue...

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