LENR Is Real

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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Giorgio
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by Giorgio »

JoeP wrote:
parallel wrote:JoeP,
You don't think "1. Must be peer-reviewed." was a straw man?
"Must" according to the dictionary doesn't leave much wiggle room.
If you read his post, he was suggesting a possible new way to categorize threads here on Talk Polywell, and to flag threads such as these as possible pseudo-science until the some criteria he suggested was met; criteria he felt that was generally used by the US patent office.

He did not say all science advancements and inventions in the past were due to a peer review process.
Your point about Edison and the like would refute a statement like that, but that is not at all what he was writing in his post.
Don't try to use too much logic all in one time with him, else he will go in buffer overflow, reset any previous improvement and reset to default settings :mrgreen:
A society of dogmas is a dead society.

parallel
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by parallel »

Giorgio,
The Peer Review process as ScottL mentioned simply DID NOT EXIST in the era of Edison because they didn't have the tools to implement it.
The first recorded editorial pre-publication peer-review process was at the Royal Society of London in 1665

Richard Horton, editor of the British medical journal The Lancet, said:

The mistake, of course, is to have thought that peer review was any more than just a crude means of discovering the acceptability—not the validity—of a new finding. Editors and scientists alike insist on the pivotal importance of peer review. We portray peer review to the public as a quasi-sacred process that helps to make science our most objective truth teller. But we know that the system of peer review is biased, unjust, unaccountable, incomplete, easily fixed, often insulting, usually ignorant, occasionally foolish, and frequently wrong.[52]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_review

Peer review has become something of a joke. It is now more like Pal Review and as the editor of BMJ pointed out, half the papers published were still wrong. Look at Climate Science for many other examples.

What you are too blind to see is that there are good, logical reasons for Rossi not to publish more. So without evidence you and the other trolls feel free to insult him and call him a fraud.
You and your fellow trolls never add anything of substance to this thread but merely criticize others and pretend hurt when you are called on it.

Giorgio
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by Giorgio »

parallel wrote:Giorgio,
The Peer Review process as ScottL mentioned simply DID NOT EXIST in the era of Edison because they didn't have the tools to implement it.
The first recorded editorial pre-publication peer-review process was at the Royal Society of London in 1665
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_review
LMAO. I plaud your Wikipedia skills, you must be very proud of them :roll:
Too bad that you missed completely the real point of the discussion. But that was expected.

parallel wrote:Peer review has become something of a joke. It is now more like Pal Review and as the editor of BMJ pointed out, half the papers published were still wrong. Look at Climate Science for many other examples.
Peer review of "Theories" IS NOT the same as Peer review of "Experiments".
But I do not expect your logic to be able to even come near to realize the difference.

parallel wrote:What you are too blind to see is that there are good, logical reasons for Rossi not to publish more. So without evidence you and the other trolls feel free to insult him and call him a fraud.
So, now the reason for Rossi NOT to disclose more about his invention is that he is scared to be called a fraud? You are really a funny guy :mrgreen:
A society of dogmas is a dead society.

parallel
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Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: LENR Is Real

Post by parallel »

Giorgio,
LMAO. I plaud your Wikipedia skills, you must be very proud of them
Too bad that you missed completely the real point of the discussion. But that was expected.
You think I missed these?

4 Criticism of peer review

4.1 Allegations of bias and suppression
4.2 Peer review failures
4.2.1 Peer review and plagiarism
4.2.2 Abuse of inside information by reviewers
4.2.3 Corrective measures
4.2.4 Examples

5 Improvement efforts: Open peer review

5.1 Early era: 1996–2000
5.2 Recent era: 2001–present

6 Peer review of government policy
7 Medical peer review
8 See also
9 References

9.1 General references and further reading

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_review

Or do you really think items posted on this thread must all be peer reviewed?
Last edited by parallel on Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ScottL
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by ScottL »

Well it's reassuring that there appears to be only one complaint about my suggested criteria. Personally, I'm a big fan of open and honest science. If I discovered something amazing that will help mankind, I'm going to release it into the wild as fast as I can. We could rephrase #1 to be open peer-review. This would mean that all data is actively given out such that any lab, researcher, really anyone could review the entirety of the work as it stands. While this would undoubtedly produce a lot of feedback, it would be perfectly fine in my opinion. The principal researcher would have no obligation to answer said feedback, but would allow those with substantial knowledge in the subject to provide rebuttals of the work. The idea being that all cards are out on the table, nobody can hide anything.

We have to remember that we're talking about the potential of a revolutionary idea/invention. You simply won't be able to monetize a clean-energy device. It will never happen and the inventor who builds such a device will never make a dime from commercially producing said device. That is not to say they won't make a fortune, but their fortune will come indirectly from the accolades of inventing such a device. Investors will throw money at any research who produced such a revolutionary process/device in hopes of hopping on the gravy train of a golden goose who might have more ideas.

parallel
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by parallel »

ScottL,
You simply won't be able to monetize a clean-energy device. It will never happen and the inventor who builds such a device will never make a dime from commercially producing said device.
In this case you are wrong. Industrial Heat will see to that.
Never make a dime? Really?

Giorgio
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by Giorgio »

parallel wrote:You think I missed these?
.....
No, I think that you are just pick-picking pieces here and there in an attempt to support your ideas.
Unfortunately what you constantly fail to realize is that those pieces are part of more complex arguments that many times prove the exact opposite of what you are trying to support.
A society of dogmas is a dead society.

Axil
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by Axil »

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182327/

Why Most Published Research Findings Are False
Scientists in a given field may be prejudiced purely because of their belief in a scientific theory or commitment to their own findings. Many otherwise seemingly independent, university-based studies may be conducted for no other reason than to give physicians and researchers qualifications for promotion or tenure. Such nonfinancial conflicts may also lead to distorted reported results and interpretations. Prestigious investigators may suppress via the peer review process the appearance and dissemination of findings that refute their findings, thus condemning their field to perpetuate false dogma. Empirical evidence on expert opinion shows that it is extremely unreliable [28].
Rossi may be right about clowns and snakes

parallel
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by parallel »

I've had my fill of troll land.
I'm off until I have more real news to post.

Giorgio
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Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:15 pm
Location: China, Italy

Re: LENR Is Real

Post by Giorgio »

parallel wrote:I've had my fill of troll land.
I'm off until I have more real news to post.
Until you have "real news" to post?
Does that mean that this is the last time we will see you here?
A society of dogmas is a dead society.

Giorgio
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:15 pm
Location: China, Italy

Re: LENR Is Real

Post by Giorgio »

Axil wrote:Rossi may be right about clowns and snakes
Rossi might even been right about the eCat, but until he will fully disclose his data and experimental setup to proper scientific scrutiny he is be no better than those same "Clowns and snakes" he complains about.
A society of dogmas is a dead society.

ScottL
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by ScottL »

Axil wrote:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182327/

Why Most Published Research Findings Are False
Scientists in a given field may be prejudiced purely because of their belief in a scientific theory or commitment to their own findings. Many otherwise seemingly independent, university-based studies may be conducted for no other reason than to give physicians and researchers qualifications for promotion or tenure. Such nonfinancial conflicts may also lead to distorted reported results and interpretations. Prestigious investigators may suppress via the peer review process the appearance and dissemination of findings that refute their findings, thus condemning their field to perpetuate false dogma. Empirical evidence on expert opinion shows that it is extremely unreliable [28].
Rossi may be right about clowns and snakes
So people in general back themselves in their belief, big surprise! Seriously though this article has conflated the merit and promotion process with the independent peer-review process. I whole-heartedly agree that faculty merits and promotions are at best corrupt having witnessed the systems in place for these in action. In most cases faculty will always vote to give a merit or promotion to maintain the status quo. The idea being I vote yes for you even though I don't like you so that you vote yes for me on mine. It's a corrupt system but it is in place and that is how it works most of the time. What's being conflated though is that somehow independent peer-review has anything to do with merits and promotions, which it does not. The only aspect of the 2 ideas that is linked is that you must publish to be considered for a merit or promotion, not that the publication is of any quality other than passable.

The independent peer-review process is a post-publish process in which the community gets access to your research papers and results. In this case (which is the case we're referencing) there is no benefit of maintaining a status quo. This is evidenced daily with every rebuttal, rebuke, or reversal paper posted. Case in point the neutrinos faster than light incident. Not only did the principal investigators publish their initial results, but remained skeptical, and when finding the issue, published their reversal with error explanation. Another case would be Dr. Tajmar who published that he had measured the gravitomagnetic version of the frame-dragging effect only to later attribute his measurement to liquid helium in the setup I do believe. There will always be flaws in a man-made system, however; this system is largely effective and has resulted in standards, practices, and reasonable research for some time now.

Those against the peer-review process, what process would you provide to help eliminate the overwhelming amount of crackpot theories out there? Do you have an effective, time-tested alternative? I suspect not and definitely not which has been so effective.

Axil
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by Axil »

The Most Embarrassing Graph in Modern Physics

Posted on January 17, 2013 by Sean Carroll

Scientists don’t always agree with each other. Yes, I know; shocking but true. In cases of collegial disagreement, it’s often fun to quantify the extent of opinion by gathering a collection of experts and taking a poll. Inevitably some killjoy will loudly grumble that “scientific questions aren’t decided by voting!”, but that misses the point. A poll of scientists isn’t meant to decide questions, it’s meant to collect data — mapping out the territory of opinion among people who have spent time and effort thinking carefully about the relevant questions.

There’s been a bit of attention given recently to one such poll, carried out by Maximilian Schlosshauer, Johannes Kofler, and Anton Zeilinger at a quantum foundations meeting (see John Preskill at Quantum Frontiers, Swans on Tea). The pollsters asked a variety of questions, many frustratingly vague, which were patiently answered by the 33 participants.

Image

It’s a histogram of the audience’s “favorite” interpretation of quantum mechanics. As we see, among this expert collection of physicists, philosophers, and mathematicians, there is not much of a consensus. A 42% percent plurality votes for the “Copenhagen” interpretation, while the others are scattered over a handful of alternatives.

I’ll go out on a limb to suggest that the results of this poll should be very embarrassing to physicists. Not, I hasten to add, because Copenhagen came in first, although that’s also a perspective I might want to defend (I think Copenhagen is completely ill-defined, and shouldn’t be the favorite anything of any thoughtful person). The embarrassing thing is that we don’t have agreement.

Think about it — quantum mechanics has been around since the 1920’s at least, in a fairly settled form. John von Neumann laid out the mathematical structure in 1932. Subsequently, quantum mechanics has become the most important and best-tested part of modern physics. Without it, nothing makes sense. Every student who gets a degree in physics is supposed to learn QM above all else. There are a variety of experimental probes, all of which confirm the theory to spectacular precision.

And yet — we don’t understand it. Embarrassing. To all of us, as a field (not excepting myself).

I’m sitting in a bistro at the University of Nottingham, where I gave a talk yesterday about quantum mechanics. I put it this way: here in 2013, we don’t really know whether objective “wave function collapse” is part of reality (as the poll above demonstrates). We also don’t know whether, for example, supersymmetry is part of reality. Wave function collapse has been a looming problem for much longer, and is of much wider applicability, than the existence of supersymmetry. Yet the effort that is put into investigating the two questions is extremely disproportionate.

Not that we should be spending as much money trying to pinpoint a correct understanding of quantum mechanics as we do looking for supersymmetry, of course. The appropriate tools are very different. We won’t know whether supersymmetry is real without performing very costly experiments. For quantum mechanics, by contrast, all we really have to do (most people believe) is think about it in the right way. No elaborate experiments necessarily required (although they could help nudge us in the right direction, no doubt about that). But if anything, that makes the embarrassment more acute. All we have to do is wrap our brains around the issue, and yet we’ve failed to do so.

I’m optimistic that we will, however. And I suspect it will take a lot fewer than another eighty years. The advance of experimental techniques that push the quantum/classical boundary is forcing people to take these issues more seriously. I’d like to believe that in the 21st century we’ll finally develop a convincing and believable understanding of the greatest triumph of 20th-century physics.

How can LENR AKA quantum fusion get a fair review from people who can't possibly understand it? These people should look at LENR as physical reality and try to understand it rather than assuming that it is impossible in principle.

JoeP
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by JoeP »

Axil wrote:
How can LENR AKA quantum fusion get a fair review from people who can't possibly understand it? These people should look at LENR as physical reality and try to understand it rather than assuming that it is impossible in principle.
You know, Axil, if you drop an apple, it falls to the ground. Anyone can repeat this experiment. So, unless you/we are in some kind of *illusory existence, it is fair to accept gravity as a key aspect of physical reality and develop theories as to how and why it works.

To take that kind of stance with cold fusion, a.k.a. LENR, is giving the evidence of it too much credence, despite the title of this thread. Yes, there is barely enough interesting experimental results to warrant more investigation and discovery, but nothing yet compelling enough to accept it as a foregone conclusion that needs a theory to explain it. It works a little, sometimes, and then, not always, and with randomness and results that are usually just a little over the noise level. You take QM as an example; while the theories aren't agreed upon, there is plenty of experimental evidence in all kinds of physical systems that are explained by it. Hey, we even have really useful microscopes that uses QM effects to produce images of even single atoms.

Rossi's stuff (or DGT's, or BLP's,...) does not have solid proof of producing useful excess energy, so you cannot cite his work as an example of that, as there has yet to be a clear, unambiguous, repeatable, replicated, and accepted test of his device that empirically shows there must be something there that needs a theory to explain the physical result.

Also - if you are so confident - why worry about it? Your hero Rossi admitted that he doesn't need scientific approval to move ahead with his plans. He always said the commercial customer and the marketplace would be the real judge that matters in the end as to whether his machine produces useful energy. He is right about that at least.

* (e.g., the famous "how do you know you are not a brain in a vat somewhere?")

Axil
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Re: LENR Is Real

Post by Axil »

See:
http://www.znaturforsch.com/s65a/s65a0573.pdf

Research of a Gas Phase under Electrical Explosion of the Titan Foil in Liquid

Leonid Irbekovich Urutskoeva et al.

Abstract:

Experimental studies of pulsed electric explosion of thin titanium foils in water with discharge power of ∼ 0.2 GW are described. The production of a considerable amount of molecular hydrogen is revealed whose origin can be explained neither by water decomposition nor by known chemical reactions. A nuclear mechanism of occurrence of the observed molecular hydrogen upon electric explosion is hypothesized. Emphasis is laid on some measurements confirming the hypothesis.
I cite this work as an example of a clear, unambiguous, repeatable, replicated, and accepted test of a method that empirically shows there must be something there that needs a theory to explain the physical result.

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