LENR Is Real

[JoeP]

Most of the low hanging fruit in science and technology have long since been picked. LENR real? Chances are it isn't.

Nevertheless, there is likely "something" going on, perhaps some sort of energy storage and later release, since many batteries also are constructed in a somewhat similar way as to many of the original cold fusion cells.

If not nuclear, it probably will not revolutionize anything, but it certainly is a little bit irresponsible to not fully investigate.
These experiments are pretty cheap and are tabletop, so, so what? I like what the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project is doing. You guys and gals(?) go! And if you happen to find the last apple within arm's reach, we all benefit hugely!

Also -- "LENR". I think this name change is telling. Cold Fusion->LENR or Global Warming->Climate Change; the basic same motivations to deflect negative press, image, and disparagement. Right Tom C? Tell me you think so too!

[tomclarke]

Most of the low hanging fruit in science and technology have long since been picked. LENR real? Chances are it isn't.

Nevertheless, there is likely "something" going on, perhaps some sort of energy storage and later release, since many batteries also are constructed in a somewhat similar way as to many of the original cold fusion cells.

If not nuclear, it probably will not revolutionize anything, but it certainly is a little bit irresponsible to not fully investigate.
These experiments are pretty cheap and are tabletop, so, so what? I like what the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project is doing. You guys and gals(?) go! And if you happen to find the last apple within arm's reach, we all benefit hugely!

Also -- "LENR". I think this name change is telling. Cold Fusion->LENR or Global Warming->Climate Change; the basic same motivations to deflect negative press, image, and disparagement. Right Tom C? Tell me you think so too!

Cold Fusion -> LENR is that for sure

Global warming -> climate change? Possibly - but I prefer Global warming!

[JoeP]

Global warming -> climate change? Possibly - but I prefer Global warming!

Kudos!

[Axil]

Some of the LENR folks think LENR involves superradiance based on magnetic polaritons. I don't yet understand is how infrared photons are converted to a condensed ultra short burst of an intense magnetic field. Does anyone understand how superradiance can produce a burst of magnetic energy?

Superradiance intensity goes as the N^2 of the number of polaritons. Pulse duration goes as 1/N of the number of polaritons. That scaling relationship will produce a powerful pulse when there is 10^23 polaritons confined in the magnetic polariton soliton. That means that the pulse has an amplification factor of 10^46 of a photon spin of 1. How many tesla does that workout to?

Does anyone here understand this branch of science?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superradiance

or those who think Wikipedia is or dummies, reference this:

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1112.1298v1.pdf

[Axil]

http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1 ... parata.pdf

To decide I superradiance is fundamental to LENR, until someone here tells me how superradiance works. I will be force to use the internet.

"The basic mechanism that makes superradiance work is that there must be a system that can communicate electromagnetically only on a well-defined, sharp frequency. If you have a lot of frequencies, this radiation simply disperses itself. If electrons emit always at one particular frequency, then you have a tremendous amplificatior effect."

...

"Superradiance is an ordering that comes from the fact that the matter systems-say, electrons, atoms, molecules, nuclei, whatever--communicate with each other in particular frequencies of the electromagnetic field. It is a superradiating process because the radiation is enormously amplified by the fact that there are many systems that radiate precisely, the same way it happens in a laser."

In a magnetic polariton soliton or a group of entangled solitons the condition for a single well defined EMF frequency is met. That frequency is simply that of the soliton.

[tomclarke]

Axil, you may have reasons for what you say which you are not posting here. But so far your argument does not make much sense.

Superradiance is well understood as a mechanism for lasing.

Polariton solitons (more usually called exciton polaritons) are e-h pairs bound with photons and indeed have a photon wavelength defined by a cavity. Coherent photons in a cavity are very possible and in this case the photon e-m fields are coherent. Polariton-lasers exist.

Magnetic polariton soliton is terminology that neither I nor google seem to understand.

I don't see how this has anything to do with LENR.

http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1 ... parata.pdf

To decide I superradiance is fundamental to LENR, until someone here tells me how superradiance works. I will be force to use the internet.

"The basic mechanism that makes superradiance work is that there must be a system that can communicate electromagnetically only on a well-defined, sharp frequency. If you have a lot of frequencies, this radiation simply disperses itself. If electrons emit always at one particular frequency, then you have a tremendous amplificatior effect."

...

"Superradiance is an ordering that comes from the fact that the matter systems-say, electrons, atoms, molecules, nuclei, whatever--communicate with each other in particular frequencies of the electromagnetic field. It is a superradiating process because the radiation is enormously amplified by the fact that there are many systems that radiate precisely, the same way it happens in a laser."

In a magnetic polariton soliton or a group of entangled solitons the condition for a single well defined EMF frequency is met. That frequency is simply that of the soliton.

[Axil]

Magnetic polariton soliton is terminology that neither I nor google seem to understand.

I don't see how this has anything to do with LENR.

To make this judgment, you must have a preconceived idea about what LENR is all about. How was this idea formed?

[Asterix]

If not nuclear, it probably will not revolutionize anything, but it certainly is a little bit irresponsible to not fully investigate.

These experiments are pretty cheap and are tabletop, so, so what? I like what the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project is doing. You guys and gals(?) go! And if you happen to find the last apple within arm's reach, we all benefit hugely!

To be blunt, after 25 years of someone trying to show that it's real, I wonder if we don't have more of a case of digging through a manure pile trying to find a pony, than picking an apple.

I tend to look at what MFMP are doing as more of an indictment of Celani's suspect work than proof of LENR. He gave them the magic wires, vetted their reactor design and they got nothing. So now it's on to powder...

As to the conspiracy theorists, I'm not on some anti-LENR payroll--I have nothing to gain by LENR acceptance or repudiation. In the beginning, I was willing to entertain the idea that Rossi or Defkalion might actually have something worth looking into, but that's increasingly less likely as time goes by.

[Axil]

If not nuclear, it probably will not revolutionize anything, but it certainly is a little bit irresponsible to not fully investigate.

These experiments are pretty cheap and are tabletop, so, so what? I like what the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project is doing. You guys and gals(?) go! And if you happen to find the last apple within arm's reach, we all benefit hugely!

To be blunt, after 25 years of someone trying to show that it's real, I wonder if we don't have more of a case of digging through a manure pile trying to find a pony, than picking an apple.

I tend to look at what MFMP are doing as more of an indictment of Celani's suspect work than proof of LENR. He gave them the magic wires, vetted their reactor design and they got nothing. So now it's on to powder...

As to the conspiracy theorists, I'm not on some anti-LENR payroll--I have nothing to gain by LENR acceptance or repudiation. In the beginning, I was willing to entertain the idea that Rossi or Defkalion might actually have something worth looking into, but that's increasingly less likely as time goes by.

Workable engineering concepts are required to make a LENR system work. The KEY engineering concept is the production of nano-spicks on the surface of 5 micron microparticles.

The spikes should be as sharp as possible to concentrate the projection of the magnetic fields produced by SPPs formed by these sharp nanostructures. These nanostructures should be in the form of a parabola for the proper projection and focusing of the magnetic field in a tight beam.

see

Surface plasmon polariton beam focusing with parabolic nanoparticle chains

http://www.opticsinfobase.org/view_arti ... %3Dno&org=

Summarizing, we have realized the efficient SPP focusing with parabolic chains of gold nanoparticles. The influence of excitation wavelength and geometrical system parameters has been investigated with the help of LRM imaging, demonstrating good stability and robustness of the focusing effect. Numerical simulations based on the Green’s tensor formalism have shown very good agreement with the experimental results, suggesting the usage of elliptical corrections for parabolic structures to improve their focusing of slightly divergent SPP beams.

The SPP splitting effect observed with narrow parabolic structures might also be found useful in SPP micro-optics.

[tomclarke]

Magnetic polariton soliton is terminology that neither I nor google seem to understand.

I don't see how this has anything to do with LENR.

To make this judgment, you must have a preconceived idea about what LENR is all about. How was this idea formed?

No. Magnetic polariton solariton is an undefined phrase - with no meaning Known to me, none described in your links, none I could find using google. I do have a preconceived idea about LENR - is some way of releasing nuclear energy without the normal high temperatures are high energy particle speeds. You tell me if that is wrong.

And if I could see how an undefined phrase related to LENR I would be highly deluded, by definition.

[Axil]

Magnetic polariton soliton is terminology that neither I nor google seem to understand.

I don't see how this has anything to do with LENR.

To make this judgment, you must have a preconceived idea about what LENR is all about. How was this idea formed?

No. Magnetic polariton solariton is an undefined phrase - with no meaning Known to me, none described in your links, none I could find using google. I do have a preconceived idea about LENR - is some way of releasing nuclear energy without the normal high temperatures are high energy particle speeds. You tell me if that is wrong.

And if I could see how an undefined phrase related to LENR I would be highly deluded, by definition.

See surface magnon-polariton

http://umexpert.um.edu.my/file/publicat ... _88557.pdf

Surface polaritons with arbitrary magnetic and dielectric materials: new regimes, effects of negative index, and superconductors.

A surface magnon-polariton can be excited by both p- and s-polarized light if at least one of the layers is a magnetic material. We present general expressions of the tangential wave vectors of s- and p-polarized light at an interface of two media. Analysis reveals additional new regimes of surface polariton resonances with magnetic materials for s- and p-polarized light. The tangential wave vectors are found to be equal in magnitude to the normal wave vectors at surface polariton resonances. The spatial distributions of the fields at resonant enhancement and the spectra of the tangential wave vectors are studied for different dielectric permittivities and magnetic permeabilities of the two media. If one of the media has dispersive dielectric function and permeability function, additional surface polariton resonance peaks appear for both s- and p polarizations. For a medium with a superconductor, the tangential component increases asymptotically at lower frequencies, providing subwavelength capability at the terahertz regime.

Nickel is a magnetic material on the nanoscale even when the temperature of the system is above its curie point. The magnetic properties of nickel are required to induce the proper kind of polaritons. Dipole motion is a more effective method of polariton excitation and pumping than light. Pressurized hydrogen serves as the dielectric.

[tomclarke]

OK - progress.

Surface magnon polaritons as defined above - yes I understand what they are and they do exist. I have however no idea why you think these have any connection with LENR - you had better enlighten me.

[Axil]

OK - progress.

Surface magnon polaritons as defined above - yes I understand what they are and they do exist. I have however no idea why you think these have any connection with LENR - you had better enlighten me.

Tom,

I am trying to understand in detail, how the experimental results that have been reported by Dr. Kim and mentioned by Rossi are produced. A magnetic field of 0.6 tesla at 20 centimeters is seen in the double faraday shielded DGT reactor at the start of a pumped reaction cycle. The field increases to 1.6 tesla at the peak of the cycle. This increase occurs without pumping. The field originates in a volume of 200 microns which contains a nickel foam mesh impregnated with 5 micron nickel power. Using the inverse square law, that puts the field produced by the micro powder into the range of 10 ^16 tesla approximately.

Rossi also reports strange EMF behavior in his reactor that he does not understand. I posted it upstream in this thread.

http://talk-polywell.org/bb/viewtopic.p ... 20#p114812

ICCF=18 DGT presentation by Kim.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5429&start=120#p114812 https://mospace.umsystem.edu/xmlui/bits ... anisms.pdf

[tomclarke]

OK - progress.

Surface magnon polaritons as defined above - yes I understand what they are and they do exist. I have however no idea why you think these have any connection with LENR - you had better enlighten me.

Tom,

I am trying to understand in detail, how the experimental results that have been reported by Dr. Kim and mentioned by Rossi are produced.

Skeptics - there are many including DGT Europe - have perfectly good mechanisms for this already. They look highly likely.

A magnetic field of 0.6 tesla at 20 centimeters is seen in the double faraday shielded DGT reactor at the start of a pumped reaction cycle.

That may be true but is not clear. Whenever equipment switched you get EMI that screws up sensitive measurements like Hall effect sensors. DGT are on record as being somewhat cavalier about measurements - even if you don't accept they are a scam. The magnetic field evidence is very flakey.

The field increases to 1.6 tesla at the peak of the cycle. This increase occurs without pumping. The field originates in a volume of 200 microns which contains a nickel foam mesh impregnated with 5 micron nickel power.
[\quote]
I don't see how you can possibly know that. It is highly unlikely, and it would take very careful measurements to provide such localisation.

Using the inverse square law, that puts the field produced by the micro powder into the range of 10 ^16 tesla approximately.

A good reason not to expect it to be so localised.

Rossi also reports strange EMF behavior in his reactor that he does not understand. I posted it upstream in this thread.

Rossi has reported whatever he thinks people want to hear. This is no evidence.

http://talk-polywell.org/bb/viewtopic.p ... 20#p114812

ICCF=18 DGT presentation by Kim.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5429&start=120#p114812 https://mospace.umsystem.edu/xmlui/bits ... anisms.pdf

The problem is that your evidence here is not credible, so building theoretical structures on top of it is unwarranted. Of course, if you had some theory that held water that would be good in itself but such has never yet been found for LENR.

[Axil]

As I said before on this thread, only a working commercial product will prove LENR to the skeptics. Such a product will be available shortly. DGT released this data before they realized that its release would put them at a possible competitive disadvantage. You will not see this data again unless you are covered by an NDA. The means and methods of LENR will remain a mystery to most for very long time to come.