LENR Is Real

[Axil]

Perhaps I'm just dim. I'm not seeing the connection between polaritons and nuclear physics.

Pretty sure you're right here. IIUC, all "quasiparticles" are accounting measures or mathematical constructions much like virtual particles, in that they only describe behavior. There is no reason to suppose they exist. So using them to describe behavior other than what is observed is silly. The concept only exists to give us a handy, reduced explanation. It is not an accurate description of real events. So any model that uses this approximation, is not really looking at the actual issue. This is one of my beefs with White's QVF model. It's based on virtual particles that have no mass and do not gravitate, transferring momentum, which means they must have inertial mass but not gravitational mass--a direct violation of Einstein's Equivalence Principle and all of GR. You don't make bone-headed mistakes like this if you're paying attention to what the actual tool and models are supposed to be used for. This is why Sean Carroll at CalTech has been so critical of White's model, even calling it "bullshit" in the press--because he's incensed that someone is proposing a misuse of such tools. This is likewise what Shawyer did with the "group velocity" concept.

See for polaritons

http://www.omel.ethz.ch/education/Plasm ... PLASMONICS

For Virtual Particles(non resonance disturbances in the EMF field) see

http://profmattstrassler.com/articles-a ... -are-they/

[Ivy Matt]

I figure this is the most appropriate thread for the following links (the first is essentially a link to the second):

http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/10/23/th ... ank-mills/

http://pesn.com/2014/10/22/9602554_Andr ... n-Reactor/

Lockheed’s Compact Fusion Reactor does not currently exist: there is no proof it will ever produce power. Even if it did, the CFR would use radioactive fuel, produce dangerous levels of neutrons, and continuously create small amounts of nuclear waste.

The advantages of the E-Cat over the CFR are immense and show that Lockheed needs to abandon the project and focus on LENR.

[birchoff]

I figure this is the most appropriate thread for the following links (the first is essentially a link to the second):

http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/10/23/th ... ank-mills/

http://pesn.com/2014/10/22/9602554_Andr ... n-Reactor/

Lockheed’s Compact Fusion Reactor does not currently exist: there is no proof it will ever produce power. Even if it did, the CFR would use radioactive fuel, produce dangerous levels of neutrons, and continuously create small amounts of nuclear waste.

The advantages of the E-Cat over the CFR are immense and show that Lockheed needs to abandon the project and focus on LENR.

Yeah some of the LENR proponents tend to get overly aggresive when it comes to something that could potentially make it to market first. The funny thing is they behave as badly as the scientists and organizations they say are suppressing LENR research.

[JoeP]

Yeah some of the LENR proponents tend to get overly aggressive when it comes to something that could potentially make it to market first. The funny thing is they behave as badly as the scientists and organizations they say are suppressing LENR research.

After skimming the comments on the E-Cat site, I have concluded that 98/100 of them have completely accepted Rossi's system and claims; despite plenty of evidence that the tests are seriously flawed or have been fraudulent. This includes people like Dr. Brian Josephson.

Once you are a believer then everything else involving new energy technologies looks like a waste of time.

Critical thinking in short supply -- even among those with intelligence.

[birchoff]

Yeah some of the LENR proponents tend to get overly aggressive when it comes to something that could potentially make it to market first. The funny thing is they behave as badly as the scientists and organizations they say are suppressing LENR research.

After skimming the comments on the E-Cat site, I have concluded that 98/100 of them have completely accepted Rossi's system and claims; despite plenty of evidence that the tests are seriously flawed or have been fraudulent. This includes people like Dr. Brian Josephson.

Once you are a believer then everything else involving new energy technologies looks like a waste of time.

Critical thinking in short supply -- even among those with intelligence.

Don't know if I can agree with that assessment. Personally I feel there isn't enough incontrovertible proof that Rossi is a fraud and has gone to extreme measures to propagate a fraud where the E-Cat is concerned. I am not one to ascribe malice to someones intent when ignorance could also be used to explain what has been seen. From all the information I have read Rossi has a checkered past, which makes him an untrustworthy source. As for his research into LENR, I suspect he found something interesting and as all inventors do, they get over confident and begin over promising. After all there is a slippery slope between being selling something and over hyping it. I think Rossi has repeated crossed that line in the past, I think Mills from BLP is also guilty of this. My take on the community over on E-CatWorld is that they are all believers in LENR and have adopted Rossi's E-Cat as the first iteration of LENR technology capable of making it to market. From my perspective I think they are willing to overlook his past indiscretions with all the good research going on with respect to LENR along with placing a measure of faith in the abilities of the Swedish team that carried out both independent tests on the E-Cat.

As for the name calling I was talking about before. That is not entirely their fault. If you read the entire history of the E-Cat as discussed here, you would swear Rossi is akin to the devil just waiting to fleece some unsuspecting person of their good sense and money. When non of the people on this forum I would surmise are in a position to have to make a decision on whether or not to risk investment dollars in Rossi or IH. So I find it hard to understand where the animosity towards Rossi and his E-Cat comes from. If he really does have something we will either find out in the future as there will be a reactor on the market, or we wont as no reactor will ever materialize. I understand that if Rossi is indeed a fraud that using that metric gives him an almost infinite amount of time to deliver something. But in the end unless you have to decide to give him money it doesn't matter. In case there are people here who could give money to Rossi/IH then its your responsibility to carry out excessive due diligence before handing your hard won money over. Which shouldn't be too hard with the two independent tests now complete, you would simply sign an NDA with Rossi/IH and attempt to get answers to the questions that all the internet skeptics want. Sure you cannot divulge that information but if your looking to make an investment then that doesn't mater. Only thing that does is whether or not you will get a return on that investment.

[JoeP]

Birchoff, most everyone on this forum was willing to give Rossi some benefit of the doubt early on. Especially me. I have nothing against the guy. I'm all for redemption and I kind of liked the idea of some cranky, angry old Italian guy (who reminds me a little bit of some Uncles in my extended family) coming up with the device that solves the energy problem.

I agree it doesn't matter in the long run. If it is a scam, he gets his comeuppance eventually.

My point was to address why the Rossi fans disparage any other system such as Polywell and the other fusion startups. Why do they believe so absolutely? The vast majority of his fans are sold. This, despite obvious problems with these so called black box tests and earlier demos. Rossi knows people accuse him of fraud. He is smart enough, I am sure, to have thought to himself that he probably should not have had hands-on interaction with the last, carefully prepared and hyped, and so-called independent test. Yet he does so anyway. Huge red flag. There has yet to be a convincing and clean test without some kind of shell game going on. For years. This is what I mean by a lack of critical thinking going on over at E-CatWorld.

Also, people get pissed off because if (many will insist on when) this is proven a scam, it will be to the detriment of many, if not all LENR efforts, and might also cast a bit of a negative shadow on non-ITER fusion projects too. So a huge lie and fraud damages and will set legit people/projects back big time.

[birchoff]

Yeah some of the LENR proponents tend to get overly aggressive when it comes to something that could potentially make it to market first. The funny thing is they behave as badly as the scientists and organizations they say are suppressing LENR research.

After skimming the comments on the E-Cat site, I have concluded that 98/100 of them have completely accepted Rossi's system and claims; despite plenty of evidence that the tests are seriously flawed or have been fraudulent. This includes people like Dr. Brian Josephson.

Once you are a believer then everything else involving new energy technologies looks like a waste of time.

Critical thinking in short supply -- even among those with intelligence.

Don't know if I can agree with that assessment. Personally I feel there isn't enough incontrovertible proof that Rossi is a fraud and has gone to extreme measures to propagate a fraud where the E-Cat is concerned. I am not one to ascribe malice to someones intent when ignorance could also be used to explain what has been seen. From all the information I have read Rossi has a checkered past, which makes him an untrustworthy source. As for his research into LENR, I suspect he found something interesting and as all inventors do, they get over confident and begin over promising. After all there is a slippery slope between being selling something and over hyping it. I think Rossi has repeated crossed that line in the past, I think Mills from BLP is also guilty of this. My take on the community over on E-CatWorld is that they are all believers in LENR and have adopted Rossi's E-Cat as the first iteration of LENR technology capable of making it to market. From my perspective I think they are willing to overlook his past indiscretions with all the good research going on with respect to LENR along with placing a measure of faith in the abilities of the Swedish team that carried out both independent tests on the E-Cat.

As for the name calling I was talking about before. That is not entirely their fault. If you read the entire history of the E-Cat as discussed here, you would swear Rossi is akin to the devil just waiting to fleece some unsuspecting person of their good sense and money. When non of the people on this forum I would surmise are in a position to have to make a decision on whether or not to risk investment dollars in Rossi or IH. So I find it hard to understand where the animosity towards Rossi and his E-Cat comes from. If he really does have something we will either find out in the future as there will be a reactor on the market, or we wont as no reactor will ever materialize. I understand that if Rossi is indeed a fraud that using that metric gives him an almost infinite amount of time to deliver something. But in the end unless you have to decide to give him money it doesn't matter. In case there are people here who could give money to Rossi/IH then its your responsibility to carry out excessive due diligence before handing your hard won money over. Which shouldn't be too hard with the two independent tests now complete, you would simply sign an NDA with Rossi/IH and attempt to get answers to the questions that all the internet skeptics want. Sure you cannot divulge that information but if your looking to make an investment then that doesn't mater. Only thing that does is whether or not you will get a return on that investment.

[AcesHigh]

Game over LERN, game over!

a much simpler and cheaper method of energy production
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEYcGPF00l0

[JoeP]

Game over LERN, game over!

a much simpler and cheaper method of energy production
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEYcGPF00l0

Hah! Now that is genius!

[KitemanSA]

Game over LERN, game over!
a much simpler and cheaper method of energy production
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEYcGPF00l0

OK! Now that one was worth watching.

[Ivy Matt]

Game over LERN, game over!

a much simpler and cheaper method of energy production
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEYcGPF00l0

[GIThruster]

Also, people get pissed off because if (many will insist on when) this is proven a scam, it will be to the detriment of many, if not all LENR efforts, and might also cast a bit of a negative shadow on non-ITER fusion projects too. So a huge lie and fraud damages and will set legit people/projects back big time.

The most serious LENR exploration I'm aware of in this country is that by NASA, and they would be entirely unaffected should Rossi be shown a fraud.

[Ivy Matt]

Are you stating this from personal knowledge, or just going on what's publicly available? Because from the publicly available information, all we have is Dennis Bushnell making statements about how great the future will be if and when we have working LENR reactors, Joseph Zawodny planning to test the Widom-Larsen LENR hypothesis, and a couple studies by Doug Wells and others on using a hypothetical LENR reactor as an aircraft power source. Zawodny's research may be serious, but as far as I'm aware he has published no results. The LENR aircraft studies, on the other hand, are completely dependent on Rossi's E-Cat (or something much like it) being real.

[GIThruster]

For Virtual Particles(non resonance disturbances in the EMF field) see

http://profmattstrassler.com/articles-a ... -are-they/

This is quite good, but I would note to you, that given this traditional, status quo position about virtual particles is correct (and I think it is) then Haish, Rueda and Puthoff's Polarizable Vacuum Zero Point Field theory is wrong start to finish. Not only is ZPF wrong, but Sonny White's QVF model is wrong and McCulloch's MiHsC model is wrong. I have to say I think this is obviously the correct reading of the facts since if any of these three are right, then Einstein's Equivalence Principle is wrong, General Relativity is wrong and in fact the very Principle of Relativity is wrong. There is just too much evidence that Einstein is right to take the trendy bullshit about virtual particles seriously.

[tomclarke]

Yeah some of the LENR proponents tend to get overly aggressive when it comes to something that could potentially make it to market first. The funny thing is they behave as badly as the scientists and organizations they say are suppressing LENR research.

After skimming the comments on the E-Cat site, I have concluded that 98/100 of them have completely accepted Rossi's system and claims; despite plenty of evidence that the tests are seriously flawed or have been fraudulent. This includes people like Dr. Brian Josephson.

Once you are a believer then everything else involving new energy technologies looks like a waste of time.

Critical thinking in short supply -- even among those with intelligence.

Don't know if I can agree with that assessment. Personally I feel there isn't enough incontrovertible proof that Rossi is a fraud and has gone to extreme measures to propagate a fraud where the E-Cat is concerned. I am not one to ascribe malice to someones intent when ignorance could also be used to explain what has been seen. From all the information I have read Rossi has a checkered past, which makes him an untrustworthy source. As for his research into LENR, I suspect he found something interesting and as all inventors do, they get over confident and begin over promising.

Perhaps what Rossi found interesting was the ease with which an LENR demo could give apparent positive results so much better than all the typical LENR stuff.

Proof now probably exists. The lastest test has an anomaly between published wire power (calculated from rms currents) and input power (calculated from currents and voltages, so that current direction matters).

The input power appears 1/3 of the correct value for the active test compared with the dummy test. This can only happen if the active power is wrong or if the heater resistance varies by a factor of three between 500C and 1250C.

The active test power could be measured wrong by the simple device of reversing one of the current measurement clamps. This would not be obvious. Rossi was present and disconnected and reconnected the reactor between dummy and active runs.

Also the waveform published of the PCE-830 display is compatible with a reversed clamp but not correct clamps - it has been claimed. I don't know enough about the PCE-830 triggering to say if this is true, but it seems plausible.

The stored data from the active runs will certainly have clear evidence both that the resistance of the heater did not chnage in some unusual way to give this X1/3 anomaly. It will also have, if as promissed it is complete, data on the power from each line during the active test. reversed clamps would result in one line power being measured negative and hence total power 1/3 of real.

The profs who did the tests can check this data and determine whether a clamp was reversed. They can also say who was responsible for this (Rossi, I suspect).