Noble Plasma Engine

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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GIThruster
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Noble Plasma Engine

Post by GIThruster »

If you watch the vid and are amazed, you can make your comments below.

http://pesn.com/2012/08/03/9602151_Bob- ... TeslaTech/
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

Who is this McKubre?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS1MsymF8hc

This is who:

Michael McKubre began his undergraduate studies at George Washington University and completed his B.Sc., M.Sc. (with honors) and doctorate in chemistry and physics at Victoria University, Wellington, New Zealand. During his Ph.D. studies he taught undergraduate and graduate courses in Electrochemistry, Surface Chemistry and Electronics. On completing his Ph.D., Dr. McKubre was granted a two year Postdoctoral Research Fellowship at Southampton University, England. There he undertook research into the electrochemical kinetic processes involved with flow-through electrochemical reactors; researched, designed, constructed and employed a novel AC impedance device to characterize flow-through reactors; assisted with the supervision of Ph.D. and M.Sc. students working on related and derivative projects. Dr. McKubre joined SRI as an electrochemist in 1978 and was appointed manager of the electrochemistry program in 1982. He is an internationally recognized expert in the study of electrochemical kinetics and was one of the original pioneers in the use of ac impedance methods for the evaluation of electrode kinetic processes. Dr. McKubre also introduced harmonic impedance spectroscopy (HIS) as a tool to measure rates and mechanisms of electrochemical reactions. These techniques have found wide application in the fields of battery science, fuel cells, corrosion, electrochemical sensors, hydrogen production and storage. In the last decade and a half as Director of the Energy Research Center, Dr. McKubre has applied himself to the discovery and application of potential new energy sources, specifically those associated with the deuterium/palladium system. He is recognized internationally in this field as an expert in the areas of PdH and PdD electrochemistry and calorimetry and has directed research and undertaken consulting in this area for the Electric Power research Institute (EPRI), the Japanese Ministry of Industry and Technology Innovation (MITI), the Defense Advanced Research Program Agency (DARPA), the US Naval Research Laboratory (NRL) and Office of Naval Research (ONR), and Italian National Energy Agency (ENEA). In 2004 Dr. McKubre helped initiate and complete a review by the US Department of Energy (DoE) of “cold fusion” in collaboration with Profs. Peter Hagelstein (MIT) and David Nagel (GWU and ex NRL). Once dismissed as a mistake or misnomer, the emerging experimental evidence of lattice nuclear effects is now recognized as having significant potential energy and strategic significance. Dr. McKubre was co-chairman of the Third International Conference on Cold Fusion (ICCF-3) and has served on the International Advisory Committee (IAC) of the ICCF since it’s inception in 1990. source

http://e-catsite.com/researchers/dr-michael-mckubre/
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

ScottL
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Post by ScottL »

McKubre is pretty well known in the LENR/Cold Fusion arena, however; he's been called on "doctoring" data to prove his theories. Steven Krivit has made some serious allegations with evidence of him altering data/presentations/etc. to fit his theory. I'm reluctant to trust any scientist that would do such a thing and the evidence appears to be there and appears to be pretty strong.

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

Links please. If you're going to make such allegations you need to provide a source. Otherwise you're just slandering the man.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

ScottL
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Post by ScottL »

GIThruster wrote:Links please. If you're going to make such allegations you need to provide a source. Otherwise you're just slandering the man.
I'm not making the allegations, but pointing that allegations have been made, but of course you knew that when you read my original post.

http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/McKubre ... cern.shtml

*Edit for more extensive url:
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/McKubre ... t-M4.shtml

TLDR: Presented in 94, modified in 2004 and then again in 2008. Claimed team recalculated data. Team contacted and claim no knowledge of recalculation. The End.

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

Source noted. I just looked at the first link briefly, and the first link that comes from your second link. Posting a private email with the recipient removed is pretty ghastly behavior on the part of Krivit. I can't waste amy more time with him.

I am not much interested in the personal antics involved with all this stuff. I'd much rather have an answer to how/why the cylinder demonstrated by Bob Rohner compressed more quickly than gravity could have caused. Unless that inductor was on a time delay, and was used to slam the cylinder back down, I can't understand what could cause that. It does indeed appear that the gas inside the cylinder expanded with great force, and then contracted once again, but I know of no known process that could account for such a thing.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

In glancing over all this stuff, seems to me that if one is focused on doing proof of science, rather than making money from developing an engine when one has no skill in this area; the simplest thing to do is to buy an RC aircraft all aluminum radial engine for $2-3k and adapt it to run on this gas mixture. You get the timing system with and there's little to do but replace the cylinders with special versions that include the inductors, electrodes and a self sealing vacuum/gas port. What you'd end up with is a demonstrator that can easily fit on a desktop along with whatever generator you hook to it. Would take up less space than this single cylinder Bob Rohner is demonstrating.

Radials are intended to be very high torque, low speed and don;'t include the cooling system Rohner says is not necessary. Also, the cylinders pop right off so they're easy to work with.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

JLawson
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Post by JLawson »

GIThruster wrote:In glancing over all this stuff, seems to me that if one is focused on doing proof of science, rather than making money from developing an engine when one has no skill in this area; the simplest thing to do is to buy an RC aircraft all aluminum radial engine for $2-3k and adapt it to run on this gas mixture. You get the timing system with and there's little to do but replace the cylinders with special versions that include the inductors, electrodes and a self sealing vacuum/gas port. What you'd end up with is a demonstrator that can easily fit on a desktop along with whatever generator you hook to it. Would take up less space than this single cylinder Bob Rohner is demonstrating.

Radials are intended to be very high torque, low speed and don;'t include the cooling system Rohner says is not necessary. Also, the cylinders pop right off so they're easy to work with.
Oh, to win the Powerball and have money to seriously play with this stuff...
When opinion and reality conflict - guess which one is going to win in the long run.

ScottL
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Post by ScottL »

GIThruster wrote:Source noted. I just looked at the first link briefly, and the first link that comes from your second link. Posting a private email with the recipient removed is pretty ghastly behavior on the part of Krivit. I can't waste amy more time with him.

I am not much interested in the personal antics involved with all this stuff. I'd much rather have an answer to how/why the cylinder demonstrated by Bob Rohner compressed more quickly than gravity could have caused. Unless that inductor was on a time delay, and was used to slam the cylinder back down, I can't understand what could cause that. It does indeed appear that the gas inside the cylinder expanded with great force, and then contracted once again, but I know of no known process that could account for such a thing.
So you're saying because Krivit posts everything openly and as transparently as possible, you didn't bother to read the actual evidence? I'm fine with a person not thinking highly of another person, but I find it boneheaded at best not to recognize evidence due to such an abysmal excuse.

ScottL
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Post by ScottL »

I am not much interested in the personal antics involved with all this stuff. I'd much rather have an answer to how/why the cylinder demonstrated by Bob Rohner compressed more quickly than gravity could have caused. Unless that inductor was on a time delay, and was used to slam the cylinder back down, I can't understand what could cause that. It does indeed appear that the gas inside the cylinder expanded with great force, and then contracted once again, but I know of no known process that could account for such a thing.
I'm curious as to why you think it compressed more quickly than gravity could cause. If you could elaborate, I'd appreciate it greatly. I vied the video and didn't see anything I didn't already expect so I feel as though I've missed something with regard to the demonstration.

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

"So you're saying because Krivit posts everything openly and as transparently as possible, you didn't bother to read the actual evidence?"

No, I'm saying that I can see it would take a long time to wade through all the details of this he-said, she-said kinda stuff and as I have no need to judge McKybre and think Krivit is obviously untrustworthy for his methods, I just don't see the value added to examine the issue further. If I ever find I have a need to form a judgement about McKubre, I can access the links you left.

"I'm curious as to why you think it compressed more quickly than gravity could cause. If you could elaborate, I'd appreciate it greatly."

In the vid, after Rohner fires the device and it expands, it then immediately contracts. When it contracts, the piston falls faster than gravity could accelerate it. This is illustrated by the fact that the weights on top don't fall with the piston, but rather return significantly behid the piston. (Vid time index 41:30)

Something has drawn the piston down faster than the weights, which are free to fall with the normal acceleration of gravity. What forced the piston down?

In a combustion engine, the piston is forced down from the mechanical energy put into the system from an explosion. As the piston falls, it forces the exhaust gasses out of the cylinder. This is NOT what we are looking at here. The piston isn't hooked to a crank and there is no normal cycle that would cause the piston to be forced down.

Rohner is saying that there is a vacuum created immediately after the explosion that forced the piston up. If that's true, this is completely unlike any combustion detonation and as McKubre says, this is not a thermodynamic cycle.

There is opportunity for fraud here. For instance, the inductor could be used both to force the piston up and to force it back down again. Could be there is no seal at all in the cylinder. Could be the little black box that controls the device is concealing a scam. There is no evidence for any of this and the panel of supporters would suggest this kind of deception is not happening, but it is possible.

Lets suppose there is no deception and the thing operates as explained. When you fire it, first a small current high voltage arc crosses the noble gas filled chamber, and ionizes the gas forming a plasma. next, a high current low voltage electric discharge leaps through the plasma and something cases the gas to expand with terrific force one instant, and contract back to its original volume the next.

This is NOT a combustion cycle. If it is what it presents itself to be, it's entirely likely that the concussive explosion we witness following normal lightning, known as thunder; is NOT the result of an explosive thermal reaction as previously supposed. It would mean there is an entirely new process going on that may have many applications in the future.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

ScottL
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Post by ScottL »

Say the piston hits a stopper after 1 inch but the force in the initial cycling was enough to throw the weight a bit, then naturally the piston would appear to fall before the weight having not met the full realization of the potential energy to kinetic energy. As for everything else, I agree, it could be a haox and it is not a combustion cycle. All things being equal, it just doesn't stand out as amazing to me I suppose.

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

Well, when he ran it, it warmed about 4 *f. He says it doesn't produce heat. He also says it would not work well for things like an automobile because it doesn't have the variable speed necessary for that sort of things. Makes perfect sense if it creates vacuum--the cycle depends upon timing the collapse of the plasma back to it's normal state and that's not presumably something one could control.

Still with all these limitations and challenges, we're talking about something that needs almost no fuel, and that does not produce waste heat. They're looking at applications like irrigation pumps that need to be able to run for months or years at a time and talking about relatively small engines (no cooling system) that can be created form very lightweight materials. They mentioned wanting to sell a 75Kw engine.

This is the sort of thing that could easily and cheaply replace the fission reactor planned for JIMO. It was after all the billion dollar price tag that got that project cancelled. In fact, if it works, it would enable all sorts of high power interplanetary probes.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

tomclarke
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Post by tomclarke »

There is opportunity for fraud here. For instance, the inductor could be used both to force the piston up and to force it back down again. Could be there is no seal at all in the cylinder. Could be the little black box that controls the device is concealing a scam.
Yes
There is no evidence for any of this
When the impossible is eliminated whatever remains else, however improbable, must be true.

In this case you are comparing the possibility of scam (many varieties, with maybe a very small number of people aware of it) with the possibility of some contrary to laws of physics as we know it energy source.

I'd call that evidence for the more likley option.
and the panel of supporters would suggest this kind of deception is not happening, but it is possible.
That sentence is interesting. It is, taken in the context of your post, self-contradictory!

More generally, it is known psychology that supporters can be found for all sorts of causes which turn out wrong.

Best wishes, Tom
Last edited by tomclarke on Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

tomclarke
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Post by tomclarke »

OK, science hat on.

I've looked at the demo.

I don't think its a scam - the people doing it admit to not understanding what they are doing, admit that they don't have clear over-unity measurements. Specifically the highest gain (150%) comes at low drive levels where measurements errors are also highest.

As for how the demo operates. They generate a high power spark Like lightning. In a sealed partial vaccum chamber. They then pass high power DC through the chamber. Create a strong transient magnetic field. Not surprising if this alters the pressure of the gas inside. Agreed it is not a simple heat engine. The gas expansion/contraction will be near adiabatic and related to the formation of a transient plasma with strong currents, magnetic fields, etc. Also I wonder why the coil is sited above the cylinder. this will provide solenoid coupling between the coil and any magnetic field due to the current through the gas. Could the force from this be significant?

What pulls the piston down? The cylinder may well be held at lower than 1 atm. It starts at vacuum and has some gas inserted. Even if not once the piston moves up, when the effect of the spark vanishes, the cylinder will be < 1 atm.

Why does the weight not fall down at same time? During the up stroke the weight and piston are accelerated upwards. As the cylinder gasses go back to normal state the partial vacuum created in the cylinder (it is greater than normal volume remember) pulls the piston down. The weights however do not experience this decceleration, hence they move up higher than the piston as result oif the initial acceleration. [Should there be some Faraday force due to plasma field/coil coupling the same applies of course - this affects piston but not weights].

Oh, and that coil and capacitor. Needed for big high power sparks. Also has really lousy effect on any electrical measurement equipment. Any wonder they get weird (electrical, so they said) measurements of power out?

NNNN here. But a nice physics puzzle.

As for the rest....

[psychology hat on]
Noble gasses sound good. Don't they. As does magic patentable mixture. Of course the effect will indeed depend on what gasses are in the cyclinder! Expected.

Engines exploding, killing people. There is something about equipment exploding that is very convincing. It could not have been a scam. So some powerful source of energy must be there...

Well these experiments have powerful conventional sources of energy. Explosions are not difficult to make, without any intention. The report of an explosion is third-hand and impossible to say what caused it. Maybe a lab gas explosion, but I bet many other things are possible! The idea that Feynman caused it by disconnecting the device sounds to me like classic disinformation. Although it could be true - stuff explodes.

Also be careful when considering scam. These guys don't seem likely scammers. But Papp before them? We do not know. So we cannot rule out explosion through foul play - and easy for it to turn out much bigger than was intended. So easy for a genuine guy to be taken in by something which looks surprising (like this) and a scammer.

I want to point out - the possibilities through this maze for some participants to be genuine but wrong, some deluded, some deliberate scamming, are many. We tend to think of one of them, and then think "well that does not seem right". People are not naturally good at this sort of analysis, which is why magic tricks work so very well.

We get essentially no information from explosions with so many variables uncontrolled. But the psychological effect is strong.

[comment on LENR]

You get an LENR type popping up here in the audienece saying this engine is "clearly a nuclear process". After someone else had given most of the above explanation (they missed the reason why the piston could go down quicker than the weight).

That should tell you something about his level credulosity. And it is symptomatic of what I have noticed in all the LENR experiments. A lack of curiosity into what could be causing the anomalous results. Instead, a jump to magic. It is very unscientific.

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