Here is a recent TED talk about a liquid metal battery for storing wind and solar power energy until it is needed by the consumer.
http://www.ted.com/talks/donald_sadoway ... nergy.html
Bill Gates invested in this company
http://gigaom.com/cleantech/the-story-o ... y-startup/
Liquid Metal Battery
Last year there was some discussion on this forum about this battery wherein the report referenced suggested that the storage cost would equal about $0.01/kWh. At that rate, it would pay, with current TOU type pricing, to buy power at night and sell it back the next day.
Of course, if this happens, the TOU pricing will effectively go by the wayside and all that will be left is RATE of use pricing differences.
Of course, if this happens, the TOU pricing will effectively go by the wayside and all that will be left is RATE of use pricing differences.
It would, however, drastically change the viability of renewable cogeneration. Right now you can strike a deal with Solar City to have solar panels put on your house for a rate that is supposed to reduce your overall power costs. I expect some hanky-panky with tax credits make it possible, but let's say cheap PV panels from China make it viable on its own merits.
These things have no storage ... they depend on selling power to the grid during the day. So what happens if this catches on? Somewhere around 1/3 of the capacity of the grid, I'd expect the whole economic model of the power companies to collapse. They'd have to switch to being storage companies. And they'd have to charge for the service. Which I would expect would make the producers grumble ... paying to use their own power. But improved batteries, with a price/performance number that makes some economic sense, will help (not everyone can use pumped storage).
But what most folks really want is to flip the switch and get cheap power, any time, day or night, without a large personal capital investment or equipment to maintain. I see no practical way to get there nationwide or worldwide without some nuclear option, tho' I do admit to having friends on the SPS bandwagon.
These things have no storage ... they depend on selling power to the grid during the day. So what happens if this catches on? Somewhere around 1/3 of the capacity of the grid, I'd expect the whole economic model of the power companies to collapse. They'd have to switch to being storage companies. And they'd have to charge for the service. Which I would expect would make the producers grumble ... paying to use their own power. But improved batteries, with a price/performance number that makes some economic sense, will help (not everyone can use pumped storage).
But what most folks really want is to flip the switch and get cheap power, any time, day or night, without a large personal capital investment or equipment to maintain. I see no practical way to get there nationwide or worldwide without some nuclear option, tho' I do admit to having friends on the SPS bandwagon.
I see your point. At the same time, people are perfectly happy to pay $10k for a central heating and air unit, or $20k for a car (or two), or a similar expenditure for any number of other long term durable goods. If the price/maintenance schedule can be brought in line with other household appliances I can see home level power generation/storage becoming commonplace.Tom Ligon wrote:But what most folks really want is to flip the switch and get cheap power, any time, day or night, without a large personal capital investment or equipment to maintain.
The key is getting the whole system in line with most other household appliances *and* potentially being able to finance the system with the house. If it's just folded into the mortgage as opposed to an extra cost that has to be paid then it's much more likely to become widely adopted.
this could potentially reduce the american dependence on fossil or combustion fuels by putting these batteries in cars and turning cars electric.
I'm guessing there may be a start up time with these batteries, need to get the temp high enough for it to work, but then we can just make it be a hybrid, or make electric air planes out of them, making a good battery doesnt even need it to be part of any green renewable thing, it can just solve problems at the front lines.
(mileage per cost is generally lower if you're using electricity from the grid than spending gas to run your car... i believe)
I'm guessing there may be a start up time with these batteries, need to get the temp high enough for it to work, but then we can just make it be a hybrid, or make electric air planes out of them, making a good battery doesnt even need it to be part of any green renewable thing, it can just solve problems at the front lines.
(mileage per cost is generally lower if you're using electricity from the grid than spending gas to run your car... i believe)
Throwing my life away for this whole Fusion mess.
I mentioned a prior thread that pointed out a $0.01/kWh cost.
Well, I checked it out a bit more and I guess that was JUST for the Cap and Maintanance cost, cuz this thing is only ~65% efficient.
If night time electrical costs are ~0.10/kWh, then this thing would cost ~$0.164/kWh put back into the system during the day time peaks.
This would still be economical if the peak ToD pricing were that ~64% greater than the base ToD price. But it would be VERY wasteful, not something I would want to do with any baseload power source other than nuclear. And even then I suspect I'd look for a better solution.
This "look for better solution" goes for intermittant sources like wind and solar too. As yet, seems this dog won't hunt.
--------
Heck, I guess if we wanted a LARGE scale, EFFICIENT storage system that might also act as a transmission system, we'd consider installing a ground level Lofstrum Launch Loop and use it for the mega equivalent of flywheel storage.
Well, I checked it out a bit more and I guess that was JUST for the Cap and Maintanance cost, cuz this thing is only ~65% efficient.
If night time electrical costs are ~0.10/kWh, then this thing would cost ~$0.164/kWh put back into the system during the day time peaks.
This would still be economical if the peak ToD pricing were that ~64% greater than the base ToD price. But it would be VERY wasteful, not something I would want to do with any baseload power source other than nuclear. And even then I suspect I'd look for a better solution.
This "look for better solution" goes for intermittant sources like wind and solar too. As yet, seems this dog won't hunt.
--------
Heck, I guess if we wanted a LARGE scale, EFFICIENT storage system that might also act as a transmission system, we'd consider installing a ground level Lofstrum Launch Loop and use it for the mega equivalent of flywheel storage.
Gravity remains one of the best energy storage and retrieval mechanisms, if not the best. Velocity (no coincidence) also remains high on the list.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)
Velocity ... yes. Decades back there was some interest in huge flywheels for grid storage. Even today there is something like 10 minutes of power stored just in the spinning alternators of the grid. The concept called for flywheels with diameters on the order of 100 meters, made with high strength fibers (bamboo was under consideration!).
You just know the Chinese are gonna win THAT battle. Poor pandas!
The flywheels would pretty much have to be polar-aligned, or they'd need enormous gimbals. And if one ever broke loose and started rolling around the countryside it would be pretty exciting. The technology does have the advantage of being very clean, and I think is probably more workable today due to our improved ability to convert power frequencies (made necessary by wind, solar, and HVDC power transmission).
You just know the Chinese are gonna win THAT battle. Poor pandas!
The flywheels would pretty much have to be polar-aligned, or they'd need enormous gimbals. And if one ever broke loose and started rolling around the countryside it would be pretty exciting. The technology does have the advantage of being very clean, and I think is probably more workable today due to our improved ability to convert power frequencies (made necessary by wind, solar, and HVDC power transmission).
As I mentioned on another thread... or maybe even another forum, perhaps it is time to consider installing ground based Lofstrum Launch Loops. Properly designed, they could be not only a good storage system, but a pretty good transmission system too.
PS: flywheels have a limit to their tangential speed and thus their energy storage density. Launch loops don't have the same limit since they don't rely on mechanical forces (strain limited) to keep them together.
PS: flywheels have a limit to their tangential speed and thus their energy storage density. Launch loops don't have the same limit since they don't rely on mechanical forces (strain limited) to keep them together.