Science magazine article

[Skipjack]

Everyone dies eventually. And you need to define what you mean by preventative medicine.

Getting some kind of treatment before a traumatic event/severe illness happens. Examples: Vaccinations, checkups, health vacations, etc (with dietary programs for people with diabetes or weight problems). Things that help you not get severely ill, especially risk patients.
This has proven very effective.

The "enemy" is certainly not virtual. If he was, the the deaths would be virtual as well.

Yeah, you need aircraft carriers in order to defeat your current enemies...

Yup. An din the long run, creating a "free-stuff" social structure does not a stable social structure or nation make. I thought you Europeans finally figured that out.

Well Austria, Germany, the nordic countries, Benelux countries, france are all doing comparably well, thanks. We all have tooo much socialism, if you ask me. That we are doing that well is surprising, even to me.
Dont get me wrong, I am not a big fan of our socialists, not at all. I just dont think that it is a good idea to pay more for something than necessary.

You do not understand republicans. I am guessing you also do not understand democrats.

Oh, I got to understand them quite well lately. The past two years of participation in space politics have been a real eye opener for me. If you think that most members of the two big parties are doing anything out of some believ, ideology or because they really think that what they are doing is the best for the american people, you are naive. I have found that the honest ones are far and inbetween. Oddly enough, I found myself siding with the libertarians a lot. But I am for what is right, not for a particular party, or an ideology. And people like Andrew Gasser from Teaparty in Space make a lot of sense to me and he is just as frustrated as I am with all this.

So spending more should not be a surprise.

And you are, but does it have to be twice as much as everybody else, especially in a time when your country would need every dime for other things, when people are loosing their homes and are out of work? I would call that wasteful spending...

Really, we do not hesitate ever?

Well you used it right the moment you had it. I would call that "not hesitating". What do you call it?
But I am sure you know very well how I meant it. Besides it was not in any way meant as a critizism of your use of nuclear weapons in WW2. It was simply pointing out that everyone knows that attacking the US is a bad, bad idea.

But, I understand as a European, these things are still a little foreign to you, and certainly, you struggle with them occasionally with pretty widespread impact.

Interestingly my country has not been in a war in almost 70 years and we have no intent to start one, not even thinking about it, not arming for it either.

Like...??? and how much again...??? Please feel free to elaborate and cite references.

Read further down

Really??? Last I checked the military budget was going down.

And I have shown you over and over again that it has been going up and is still going up.

Really? Not that I have made up my mind about the need or not for SLS, but here is a consideration for you. One of the dilemmas in having a large industrial base with specific skill sets is the ability to maintain it. This is a dilemma that results in hard decisinos and policies. One result of this is that the US no longer has the ability to build armored warships. Some would argue that it was a good call to lose that skill and knowhow. Some would argue that it was really stupid to let it go.

Ahh, you found it
So, as I said for republican hypocrits, socialism is perfectly OK as long as the wealth is being redistributed to weapons manufacturers. Thank you so much for making my point yet again by defending the billion dollar SLS- earmark as "necessary to keep the weapons industry in tact". And there we are again at hidden defense spending.
Of course the hypocrits in congress are perfectly happy with the fact that by delaying commercial crew (and they are trying to kill it with all methods they can find) they are subsidizing the russian space industry and you have to give all sorts of political headroom to the russians in return. Like them supporting Iran... But that is OK as long as ATK keeps getting its billion USD earmark. Socialism at work!

[Skipjack]

Everyone dies eventually. And you need to define what you mean by preventative medicine.

Getting some kind of treatment before a traumatic event/severe illness happens. Examples: Vaccinations, checkups, health vacations, etc (with dietary programs for people with diabetes or weight problems). Things that help you not get severely ill, especially risk patients.
This has proven very effective.

The "enemy" is certainly not virtual. If he was, the the deaths would be virtual as well.

Yeah, you need aircraft carriers in order to defeat your current enemies...

Yup. An din the long run, creating a "free-stuff" social structure does not a stable social structure or nation make. I thought you Europeans finally figured that out.

Well Austria, Germany, the nordic countries, Benelux countries, france are all doing comparably well, thanks. We all have tooo much socialism, if you ask me. That we are doing that well is surprising, even to me.
Dont get me wrong, I am not a big fan of our socialists, not at all. I just dont think that it is a good idea to pay more for something than necessary.

You do not understand republicans. I am guessing you also do not understand democrats.

Oh, I got to understand them quite well lately. The past two years of participation in space politics have been a real eye opener for me. If you think that most members of the two big parties are doing anything out of some believ, ideology or because they really think that what they are doing is the best for the american people, you are naive. I have found that the honest ones are far and inbetween. Oddly enough, I found myself siding with the libertarians a lot. But I am for what is right, not for a particular party, or an ideology. And people like Andrew Gasser from Teaparty in Space make a lot of sense to me and he is just as frustrated as I am with all this.

So spending more should not be a surprise.

And you are, but does it have to be twice as much as everybody else, especially in a time when your country would need every dime for other things, when people are loosing their homes and are out of work? I would call that wasteful spending...

Really, we do not hesitate ever?

Well you used it right the moment you had it. I would call that "not hesitating". What do you call it?
But I am sure you know very well how I meant it. Besides it was not in any way meant as a critizism of your use of nuclear weapons in WW2. It was simply pointing out that everyone knows that attacking the US is a bad, bad idea.

But, I understand as a European, these things are still a little foreign to you, and certainly, you struggle with them occasionally with pretty widespread impact.

Interestingly my country has not been in a war in almost 70 years and we have no intent to start one, not even thinking about it, not arming for it either.

Like...??? and how much again...??? Please feel free to elaborate and cite references.

Read further down

Really??? Last I checked the military budget was going down.

And I have shown you over and over again that it has been going up and is still going up.

Really? Not that I have made up my mind about the need or not for SLS, but here is a consideration for you. One of the dilemmas in having a large industrial base with specific skill sets is the ability to maintain it. This is a dilemma that results in hard decisinos and policies. One result of this is that the US no longer has the ability to build armored warships. Some would argue that it was a good call to lose that skill and knowhow. Some would argue that it was really stupid to let it go.

Ahh, you found it
So, as I said for republican hypocrits, socialism is perfectly OK as long as the wealth is being redistributed to weapons manufacturers. Thank you so much for making my point yet again by defending the billion dollar SLS- earmark as "necessary to keep the weapons industry in tact". And there we are again at hidden defense spending.
Of course the hypocrits in congress are perfectly happy with the fact that by delaying commercial crew (and they are trying to kill it with all methods they can find) in order to fund and justify SLS, they are subsidizing the russian space industry and you have to give all sorts of political headroom to the russians in return. Like them supporting Iran... But that is OK as long as ATK keeps getting its billion USD earmark. Socialism at work!

[ladajo]

Roger,
I am not sure what you mean.
The numbers I am using are straight from CBO and include OCO.

I interjected because I feel that there is a need to agree on what numbers to use, CBO? Iraq & Afghanistan on budget or off.

SO yes, CBO is good, on budget and probably current, certainly no older than 2010. Ladajo you picked up on my intent perfectly.

This may not be from CBO forgive me in advance.
Wiki says 2010 was 683 billion and in 2010 Iraq & Afghanistan were included. IF GDP was 14 trillion, 4.9%=686 billion, close.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_b ... ted_States

Ladajo I would like to continue this conversation, but I have to go offline for today. Lets keep it going. Thanks.

http://www.cbo.gov/publication/42911

Try Table F-4. But all are germaine.

[ladajo]

Everyone dies eventually. And you need to define what you mean by preventative medicine.

Getting some kind of treatment before a traumatic event/severe illness happens. Examples: Vaccinations, checkups, health vacations, etc (with dietary programs for people with diabetes or weight problems). Things that help you not get severely ill, especially risk patients.
This has proven very effective.

And the US does not do any of this? Strange, I must be living in another dimension.

Yeah, you need aircraft carriers in order to defeat your current enemies...

They certainly have proven useful now that you mention it. Nice to have an access tool to get you into pretty much anywhere you need at will that no one can deny you use of. I am also sure that there are a number of Taiwanese and other folks who are very happy that we have them.

Well Austria, Germany, the nordic countries, Benelux countries, france are all doing comparably well, thanks. We all have tooo much socialism, if you ask me. That we are doing that well is surprising, even to me.
Dont get me wrong, I am not a big fan of our socialists, not at all. I just dont think that it is a good idea to pay more for something than necessary.

Shame you are having to pay for the others now that went further down the hole than you have yet. Do you think you all will be able to pull out of the crash dive? I think it is still fairly iffy. But I galso guess that it was not paying more for something than necessary that got you all into the mess the EU is in. Probably more fair to say it was paying something for nothing.

You do not understand republicans. I am guessing you also do not understand democrats.

Oh, I got to understand them quite well lately. The past two years of participation in space politics have been a real eye opener for me. If you think that most members of the two big parties are doing anything out of some believ, ideology or because they really think that what they are doing is the best for the american people, you are naive. I have found that the honest ones are far and inbetween. Oddly enough, I found myself siding with the libertarians a lot. But I am for what is right, not for a particular party, or an ideology. And people like Andrew Gasser from Teaparty in Space make a lot of sense to me and he is just as frustrated as I am with all this.

I really think you should read up on the history of the two parties. I have a feeling it would enlighten you some.
In any event, it may surprise you that I am neither republican or democrat. I fundamentally think the system is broken, and have thought that for a number of years. I am a conservative, and I also do not belive in big government, and most especially the "free-stuff" ideology.

but does it have to be twice as much as everybody else, especially in a time when your country would need every dime for other things,

You really do need to look at where all the money goes. Look beyond your pet rock. Defense is not the problem.

It was simply pointing out that everyone knows that attacking the US is a bad, bad idea.

It would seem that some folks still don't get that. I also think that most folks don't get that the US as a culture and society has little interest in fighting wars. The culture only goes that way when we feel that we or our friends are threatened. I guess the strong sense of being willing to fight for right and wrong (and spend national treasure to do it) is misinterpreted as adventuristic hegemony. Of course, after we invade and conquer, we take over and stay forever. The last 100 years of empire expansion has been great for us. I love vacationing in the south of France, Japan, Vietnam, Bosnia, China, Africa, Hispaniola, Borneo...

Interestingly my country has not been in a war in almost 70 years and we have no intent to start one, not even thinking about it, not arming for it either.

Give it time. Someone will come knocking. Did you know that even the Swiss thought about nuclear weapons? If thing skeep going the way they have been the last couple of decades, you will be arming up before you know it. Personally, I hope not. I would also point out if it was not for the efforts of the US, you proably already would have been.

And I have shown you over and over again that it has been going up and is still going up.

Nope, you haven't. I have shown you where it has been going down, and is projected to go down more.
You are stuck on your pet rock, and beleive that SLS keeps peeing on it.

Not that I have made up my mind about the need or not for SLS

Again, I have not made a decision either way on SLS. What I wrote after that was merely pointing out one of the arguments being considered in the debate (but not by me).

[bk78]

bk78,
It would seem useful to you that 'we' provide you such a "Great Satan" to rally against.

No. It is neither useful nor welcomed that you provide a "Great Satan". Instead, beeing put in the same category as you as a 'western' country causes us some minor problems.

My fundamental point is two fold, and I have stuck to it for a number of years: One must prepare for defense against the other with nothing better to do.

There is NO ONE you have to defend against in a war now and in foreseeable time. Canada and Mexico don't threaten you, and the rest is too far away. Neither Saddam nor Ahmadinejad would be coming in a boat to invade your country. China has nothing to gain from you in a military conflict, and even if it would try, then only once it is far superior and guaranteed to win. Thus, it would be more efficient to invest your ressources elsewhere.
What was the effect of your military engagement in iraq (do we agree that it was offensive and not defensive?):

Of the countries surveyed, 18 hold predominantly positive views of the US, seven hold negative views and two are divided. On average , 49 per cent of people have positive views of US influence in the world--up four points from 2010--and 31 per cent hold negative views. The poll, conducted by GlobeScan/PIPA, asked a total of 28,619 people to rate the influence in the world of 16 major nations, plus the European Union.
In 2007 a slight majority (54%) had a negative view of the United States and only close to three in ten (28%) had a positive view; America was among the countries with the lowest ratings. Views began to rise in 2008, with positive views rising to 32% on average, and now the USA is in a middle tier position, ranking substantially higher than China.

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/ ... bt/680.php

One must also seek ways to give the other something better to do.

I said the same thing, obviously we agree on that. I want to add that the idea that people go to war "because they have nothing better to do" is a bit disrespectful to humans in general - as i said, people prefer to care about their own life unless they are forced into a game of hatred. But maybe that was just a bad choice of words.

So where do you live anyway?

And now for the fun part of the survey:

Germany is seen as having the most positive influence in the world among all countries evaluated. This has been the case since tracking began in Germany in 2008. Globally and in the 24 countries surveyed both in 2010 and 2011, 62 per cent of people rated Germany positively, which represents a three-point increase since last year. However, negative views--while still at very low levels--rose two points (15%). Out of 27 countries polled in 2011, 26 lean positive and one is divided (Pakistan).

Obviously, beeing on good terms with other countrys provides a much more valuable contribution to defense than buying expensive tools for killing. Oh, and that Pakistan outliner goes on your account.

[bk78]

When will you learn that giving out free-stuff eventually breeds expectations of somethign for nothing. No society can survive that in the long run. You of all should know that. It surrounds you in all directions.
[...]
There are two opposing ideologies in man, those who think they should earn, and those who think they should take. If you are an earner, how do you mitigate the risks you face from the takers?

As Skipjack said, countrys with healthcare are doing very well. There will always be some minor problems and discussions, but in these countries no one really would go against it. It is simply an improvement in the standard of living to know, if you are sick, someone will care about you.
Every social animal helps each other out, so why would humans prefer to look at their bank account? It's not that the earners are THREATENED in any serious way. Btw, i am a earner, and i have no problem with my expenditures for public health care.
While i don't feel i have the right to mess with your internal affairs, i have to tell you, that the ongoing struggling of the americans in this matter is percieved as a somewhat ancient curiosity in countrys that live with it for decades.

[Betruger]

The difference is a culture of voluntary charity versus law enforced charity.

[ladajo]

No. It is neither useful nor welcomed that you provide a "Great Satan". Instead, beeing put in the same category as you as a 'western' country causes us some minor problems.

I wonder how your Turkish and other ethic immigrants view you?

There is NO ONE you have to defend against in a war now and in foreseeable time. Canada and Mexico don't threaten you, and the rest is too far away. Neither Saddam nor Ahmadinejad would be coming in a boat to invade your country. China has nothing to gain from you in a military conflict, and even if it would try, then only once it is far superior and guaranteed to win. Thus, it would be more efficient to invest your ressources elsewhere.
What was the effect of your military engagement in iraq (do we agree that it was offensive and not defensive?):

I fully think that the war against Iraq was poorly marketed. It was in fact appeasing the interests (and demands in some cases) of stabilizing the future of europes economy. I would posit that you are somewhat naive if you do not see the driving forces behind it. And, yes this was an outgrowth of not having finished the job in the first place. Although I am sure that the Kuwaitis were happy about us having aircraft carriers and military reach to sort the issue at least for them.

Apparently, some folks still haven't got the memo not to attack other countries, be it from a boat, airplane, or on foot.

You touch on it, but still are struggling to see that fundamentally, some folks have no issue with taking what they want from others. The really crafty ones convince the 'providers' it is in everyones best interest to do so. They do this many ways, one of which unfortunately is through use of violence. These folks really do enter the equation with a sense of entitlement. I am asking simply, "Why encourage or aide this?"

Views began to rise in 2008, with positive views rising to 32% on average, and now the USA is in a middle tier position, ranking substantially higher than China.

So it would seem that whatever we are doing it is helping. Which is not so helpful to your position that we are failing. Hmm. Fully read your references.

I want to add that the idea that people go to war "because they have nothing better to do" is a bit disrespectful to humans in general - as i said, people prefer to care about their own life unless they are forced into a game of hatred.

I wish that was true. But, I have been all over the world, and not on vacation either. In my travels I have seen much. Unfortunately, most of what I saw was where a few have hearded the rest into a postion where the few can take what they want when they want. Occasionally, these folks have also milked dry the reservior they are drawing on, an have then sought to expand the area of influence, in order to take more.
Inevitably, some of the reservior decide it is better to just take, than not have, and the cycle re-enforces.

Maybe you just do not realize how prevelant this is around the planet. Maybe you should wonder also why so many people try to move to the US to live. It surely isn't our social welfare system, you guys in the EU have us beat hands down on that. Although, lately we seem to be trying hard to catch up and dig our hole just as deep.

My tenant about "nothing better to do" is a deep consideration of the base nature of humans after many years of seeing humans all over the place. I really think that if you give them something better to do, and opportunity to do so, they will on average embrace it, and give it a go. This means in a simplistic Maslow point of view, that they provide for themselves, then they help provide for the close circle, then try to improve their lot, ultimately rising to the top of the pyramid and "self enlightenment". This is the part where they become artists or something, and live on the means they provided while climbing the scale...

Obviously, beeing on good terms with other countrys provides a much more valuable contribution to defense than buying expensive tools for killing.

I do not think that Germany is on good terms with a number of countries. Maybe you should open your eyes a bit. Also, maybe you should check into the design, production, and sales of German military hardware to other countries. BTW, in case you hadn't noticed your military has been doing a bit of traveling the last two decades.

As Skipjack said, countrys with healthcare are doing very well.

Really? Greece? Ireland? Spain? France? UK? etc. etc. Your idea of very well must be different from mine.

There will always be some minor problems and discussions

The current risk of collapse of the EU economy is a "minor problem and discussion"?

Every social animal helps each other out, so why would humans prefer to look at their bank account?

I would posit that you are correct in the part about folks helping each other out. It is a VERY strong cultural imperative here in the states. But it is by choice. Not by mandate. Just as Bertruger has commented.

As to the bank account part, I see you have a limited view as to what money and wealth really is. Did you know that the US is the most generous nation in the world(by a margin) for per capita donations and charity? Especially one the world stage? I guess that you do not.

Btw, i am a earner, and i have no problem with my expenditures for public health care.

And do you have issue with the other entitlement programs? Do you have issue with who gets it? Immigrants? Illegal Immigrants? Other EU countries that use it to support corruption?
Where do you stand on all this?

While i don't feel i have the right to mess with your internal affairs, i have to tell you, that the ongoing struggling of the americans in this matter is percieved as a somewhat ancient curiosity in countrys that live with it for decades

Now that is condescending and funny at the same time. You really do not get what we are arguing about here in the states do you?
In case you don't know, you should know that I have both lived and travelled in Europe extensively, and that I was born and grew up under European culture not in the US. So I do have some understanding of your perspectives.
I would also love to have you sit in a room with some of my German friends and posit your ideas with them. Very possible, as most are currently in Germany. They would really get a kick out of your thoughts.
You sound young. No offense intended.

[KitemanSA]

But I just dont really see how you can seriously defend a system that costs twice as much as ours without being twice as good. You have to admit that this is lacking in logic.

Actually, I suspect that what people are defending is the system that this country WOULD have if it weren't for folks who think government is the solution to every one of life's little foibles.

The extreme cost of the American system is due to government mandate, and its handmaidens in evil, lawyers.

I do find it fairly interesting that many if not most of the medicines and medical devices found in Europe, indeed around the world, were developed here in the States. You all get to pay the marginal cost of building them. We get to pay the development cost.

It may behoove you to start supporting the US Free Enterprise Medicine system a bit more. After all, YOUR lives are on the line too.

[KitemanSA]

If you want a peaceful world, then improve the living standard in the middle east, make them have something to lose instead of standing with the back to the wall. n.

Oh, I get it, we shouldn't stop at Iraq, we should invade ALL middle eastern countries and strip them of their paleolithic religion and IMPROVE them and MAKE them better.

Hmmm. That might just work... not!!!

When I was in college, I had to tutor folks to make ends meet. One person I tutored was a Saudi Arab with an attitude something like yours. He claimed pointedly that the Americans had never done anything for SA. I asked about all the roads and schools and hospitals and houses and... that Aramco had built for the populous of SA and in which he had grown up in and been educated sufficiently to come to the States for university level education. Well, yeah he ssaid, but it had never done anything for "me" says he.

I ask for my $5 (yes it was long ago) for the tutoring and he pulls out this wad of cash that could have choked a camel, unrolled it and pulled off a 5 spot from the "low" value side of the stack. I pointed at the stack and said something like "never helped you? I'd like to "not be helped" that way some time". He stormed off and I never tutored him again.

You can lead a whore to culture but you cannot make her think.

[Roger]

http://www.cbo.gov/publication/42911

Try Table F-4. But all are germaine.

Excellent link, thanks. SO my BOE was 4.9% in 2010, not a bad guess (4.8%). And from 1972 to 1996 the DOD budget was lower than 4.8% og GDP for 6 years out of 24.

And the issue was during the Cold War compared to now, though if we used 2009 - DOD spending was 656 billion plus about 106 billion for the 2 wars, and you get about 5.5% of GDP, which is still 12 out of those 24 years.

SO no matter how I diced it Ladajo has it right. Skipjack we might have had a point in prior years, during the peak of Iraq and Afghanistan spending. But those 2011 CBO numbers clearly show Ladajo had it right.

[Skipjack]

And the US does not do any of this? Strange, I must be living in another dimension.

With an average of two weeks of vacation and 5 sickdays a year, when are people doing that? My dad is on a so called "Kur" for two weeks every year after his first heart event (which actually was minor). He gets a full exercise programme as well as a whole set of checkups all in a very relaxing spa- environment.

They certainly have proven useful now that you mention it. Nice to have an access tool to get you into pretty much anywhere you need at will that no one can deny you use of.

Yes, but you wont need more new aircraft carriers than you already have. The ones you have would be perfectly sufficient for the low tech enemies that you are currently fighting with.

I am also sure that there are a number of Taiwanese and other folks who are very happy that we have them.

What war is it that you are CURRENTLY fighting there?

Shame you are having to pay for the others now that went further down the hole than you have yet. Do you think you all will be able to pull out of the crash dive? I think it is still fairly iffy. But I galso guess that it was not paying more for something than necessary that got you all into the mess the EU is in. Probably more fair to say it was paying something for nothing.

This makes no sense. How does paying less for something cause the problems the EU is in? Besides, Austria and Germany are doing just fine. France is not doing that badly either. It was not our healthcare system that caused the problems in Greece and Spain and other sovereign countries with very different social systems. So this comment here does not make any sense whatsoever.

You do not understand republicans. I am guessing you also do not understand democrats.

I cant really say I understand them on a voter level, but I do understand them at a congressional level. I have come to learn that the respective members of congress will happily vote against their own party or completely ignore any reason as long as it serves the lobbies they are getting paid by. There is simply no other logical reason why they would act so stupidly and against the interests of their own voters. As I said, I have followed the whole SLS vs commercial crew discussion very deeply and I have come to the conclusion that both republican and democrat congress delegates are equally crazy when it comes to that. The other thing that made it very clear was the passing of the NDAA, which is against the constitution and the only Americans that agree with it, are those that dont understand it.

I really think you should read up on the history of the two parties. I have a feeling it would enlighten you some.

History is irrelevant, Whatever these two parties used to stand for and whatever used to motivate them is irrelevant in light of the current lobby- driven politics in congress.

I am a conservative, and I also do not believe in big government, and most especially the "free-stuff" ideology.

I am not for big government either, but I am for fixing things that are broken. The healthcare system in the US has been clearly broken for decades now. The costs were exploding faster than they were in Europe(!) and the service was not getting any better. People were working 2 or 3 part time jobs at minimum wage and still were without even the most basic healthcare because the employers did not have to provide them with a package as part time employees and self insurance was too expensive for them to afford. All that made it clear that the system needed fixing. Maybe there would have been another solution that may or may not have worked better. But if you look at Austria, Sweden and France, you can see examples for systems that do work very well. They cost less and are better. So why the resistance to change? Why do you insist on paying more out of some ideological fancy? It is absolutely illogical and unreasonable. To think that way!

The difference is a culture of voluntary charity versus law enforced charity.

What about the law enforced charity towards defense companies? What about law enforced charity towards oil companies and companies writing standardized tests for schools?

Give it time. Someone will come knocking.

Maybe, maybe not. Currently I dont see anyone even in the far future that could or would be interested. It certainly wont be us who will be starting the war for whatever reason. Our war fighting days are definitely over. Two world wars are two to many. Thanks.
Of course the US was the only real winner of both... so...

Nope, you haven't. I have shown you where it has been going down, and is projected to go down more.

Ahem, I thought I posted that earlier:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Infla ... ending.PNG

Does this look like a downward slope to you?
And 2012 will see yet another increase... just saying.

You are stuck on your pet rock, and believe that SLS keeps peeing on it.

Not sure what you are trying to say with this (language barrier I guess), but it is simply one area of US politics that I know very well and I have been personally talking to a lot of people that are involved with this. As I said, I am – on this topic- absolutely siding with the teaparty. There are a few other republican politicians that I can relate to like Dana Rohrabacher. The administration originally wanted a small government, free market approach. Several republican senators and congress men as well as two democrats were acting against the plan for various reasons, mostly because of money from strong lobbies and special interest groups. They were even acting against the best interests of the citizens in their districts! And it cant be because they don't know any better. They have been educated on the topic several times. They are aware of the budgetary reality. If they cant understand these two things that they are not fit for their office and should get treatment in a clinic! But I am sure they do understand them. They just ignore it and keep repeating the same stupid BS over and over again like broken records even though they have been told over and over again that this is not how things are in reality. But as I said they know better, they just dont act to their knowledge because they are more interested in the lobbying money than what is best for the country or even their own districts. The same was with the NDAA (you know both republicans and democrats, all but 13 of them voted for that...).

I do not think that Germany is on good terms with a number of countries.

LOL, I think the world would end before Germany declares war on another country. There is absolutely NO political will here to start a war with anyone. I think Germany is way more popular than the US is right now.

The current risk of collapse of the EU economy is a "minor problem and discussion"?

You are blowing the issue waaaaay out of proportion my friend! The EU wont collapse, The Eurozone might get smaller. Some countries might have to or want to leave it, depending on how things go. Times are certainly not easy for the EU as a whole, but both Germany and Austria are doing well enough. You certainly dont have any idea what you are talking about.

And do you have issue with the other entitlement programs? Do you have issue with who gets it? Immigrants? Illegal Immigrants? Other EU countries that use it to support corruption?
Where do you stand on all this?

I do have an issue with these programs. That does not change my stance on the healthcare issue though. These things are completely unrelated and should be treated as such.
Also, we all have issues with corruption somewhere, dont we?

But, I have been all over the world, and not on vacation either. In my travels I have seen much.

I have traveled at least as much as you and I have a different view on things. How is that?

Maybe you should wonder also why so many people try to move to the US to live.

I think the EU has waaaay more immigrants than the US has per capita. Why is that then?

Actually, I suspect that what people are defending is the system that this country WUOLD have if it weren't for folks who think government is the solution to every one of life's little foibles.

Oh, some utopic system. Hey I mean if you ask the average socialist here, he will tell you too how wonderful the system would be if everyone was... well you know the story. Same ideologic crap!
Fact is your health care system did not work and your republicans were still defending it and fighting for it nails and toes thanks to lobbying from insurance companies. Fact is that our health care system (no I am not talking about pensions, I am not talking about social security, I am not talking about immigration laws and other socialist redistribution crap that I am VERY critical of, I am simply talking about healthcare and just that) fact is that that is working better than yours. It has been working better and it does not look like it is going to worsen any time soon. It got more expensive in the past decades, yes, but the price for yours has risen even more.

I do find it fairly interesting that many if not most of the medicines and medical devices found in Europe, indeed around the world, were developed here in the States. You all get to pay the marginal cost of building them. We get to pay the development cost.

It may behoove you to start supporting the US Free Enterprise Medicine system a bit more. After all, YOUR lives are on the line too.

Cost of pharmaceuticals is 20% of the cost of healthcare in the US. What is responsible for the other 60% difference in cost between yours and ours(and I am being generous there)?

[ladajo]

http://www.cbo.gov/publication/42911

Try Table F-4. But all are germaine.

Excellent link, thanks. SO my BOE was 4.9% in 2010, not a bad guess (4.8%). And from 1972 to 1996 the DOD budget was lower than 4.8% og GDP for 6 years out of 24.

And the issue was during the Cold War compared to now, though if we used 2009 - DOD spending was 656 billion plus about 106 billion for the 2 wars, and you get about 5.5% of GDP, which is still 12 out of those 24 years.

SO no matter how I diced it Ladajo has it right. Skipjack we might have had a point in prior years, during the peak of Iraq and Afghanistan spending. But those 2011 CBO numbers clearly show Ladajo had it right.

Thanks for giving it a fair and critical look Roger. I am glad you got something out of it.

I will let someone else take a turn on Skipjack's last round. I am still reeling with the idea that if you replace an aging asset you should not try to replace it with something at current technology standards.

I am also concerned that Skipjack also thinks that we are trying to build more carriers, when in fact we have reduced the force, and continue to argue about how far to reduce it further as we replace the older platforms. Of course this same arguement is occuring with amphibious ships.

I also am concerned that he has no concept of deterance.

And, I wonder if he is against providing health care to immigrants and illegals, or just everything else.

Something else you should look at is that there is currently an argument on the table that defense spending can be reduced to 4% or less of GDP as we move forward. I am all for limiting spending where-ever we can. But, I am also aware that we are not living in a safe world yet. I think in regards to government spending verses income, there is way more maneuver room in entitlement than defense. But all that said, I also firmly believe that in all corners, we spend money stupidly. My favorite latest was the kneejerk over FBI Muffins. DOD instituted kneejerk controls, reporting, and decision chains that are and will cost MAGNITUDES more than anything it will save. The really funny part is that the whole Muffin-gate was wrong, and the media published a retraction (on page whatever) that they did not market nor advertise. Now, government gets to spend more on attempted saving (again), than any savings ever to be realized.
Net result, more red on the bottom line. Way to go, idiots.
This is what the entire aquisitions bureacracy has grown into and is about. It is complete wasteful silliness that creates impossible guidelines and goals. The entire 5000 needs to be deleted, and paper copies burned.
The only useful thing about these days is the Rapid Aquisition process. It has risk, but man-o-man, it has brought some great stuff to the table, very quickly and very cheaply.
Sad.

[Roger]

we are trying to build more carriers, when in fact we have reduced the force,.

Well that one I know right off the top of my head, Not too long ago we used to have 10, Kitty Hawk was retired, that leaves 9. Enterprise is on its last deployment, might be replaced by GHWB (in qualifications as I type), and Reagan would put us back at 10.

But by 2018 we'll have the Ford and the JFK, thats 12. Nimitz retires in 2024, call it 11. IKE would be next to retire, back to 10.

SO I would say you're both wrong over about 20 years, we'll start at 10 and 20 yrs later still have 10. 2008 to 2028.

http://www.gonavy.jp/CVLocation.html

We showed up at the Gilbert Islands with 21 brand new carriers in Nov '43.

Ladajo. Too often folks talk right past each other, that why I wanted to ask if your CBO numbers included the supplemental appropriations for Iraq and Afghanistan, because at 100 to 200 billion a year it makes a difference, lets use the same phreakin numbers at least.

Too often the left and the right are using different metrics, and calling it a yardstick to make a point. Without trying to find out the actual metrics.

[ladajo]

Ten is the target. Not to long ago it was 13, then 12.
Most all agree now that 10 is the hold number. That accounts for forward, sustainment, and trainup, with the ability to surge the entering sustainment, or mid to late trainers if need be.

The same logic and numbering is being bandied for the big deck amphibs. However, the other driver for amphibs is the ability to field a MEB. the current construct falls short.

The other drama is that we no longer have enough CruDes to support cvn and amphib ops. The bright idea about 5 years ago was to maintain the 10+ CSGs and 10+ ESGs, however fiscal reality and completely mismangaed build programs intervened. ESGs are now a paper construct only. And CSGs no longer deploy with the full stack they once had in supporting assets. Just not enough to go around.

Somebody is going to figure out sooner or later that we can not support two fights any more. 3 CSGs pressuring Iran for instance would leave a void elsewhere. Figure at any given time, 2 or 3 are in the yards, and the others are in training. If lucky, you may have one ready spare. That also does not consider maintaining the rotation for an extended push.

And we did not even talk about aircraft yet.

Good fun.