Polywell pat application 20110170647 - prosecution documents

[Joseph Chikva]

I only would like to say that ideal model can dramatically differ from real.

No one here has EVER sustained the opposite.

But "can be" ain't "is". The ideal model "can be" very close to real too.

I do recall reading that the data are consistent with EMC2's model. But IIRC, that statement was made by Dr. Nebel, so it may be a scam.

I am sure that at least the statement of Dr. Nebel on "strongly radial motion" is too far from reality.

[Giorgio]

I only would like to say that ideal model can dramatically differ from real.

No one here has EVER sustained the opposite.

"I excited with Polywell" said someone.
"Polywell is not financed because of concpiracy of oil companies or mainstream scientists"
I have never heard about possible conceptual problems.
But heard a lot about 10T beta=1

Your continuous twisting of other people words and completely misunderstanding of one's point of view is really depressing.

There has been plenty of discussion of possible conceptual problems with the Polywell since the start of this board.
Before making such silly statements you should go back and start to read the posts on this forum since July 2007.

[Joseph Chikva]

you should go back and start to read the posts on this forum since July 2007.

Is this punishment?
Something like "read "Our Father" thousand times"

[Giorgio]

Is this punishment?
Something like "read "Our Father" thousand times"

In your case it might be enlightenment.

The only one getting a punishment till now are the one that are trying to get a meaningful sense out of your posts.

[Joseph Chikva]

Is this punishment?
Something like "read "Our Father" thousand times"

In your case it might be enlightenment.

The only one getting a punishment till now are the one that are trying to get a meaningful sense out of your posts.

I believe you and will not read.
And if you can not get a meaningful sense out of my posts you simply can ignore them.
Best regards,

[vankirkc]

"I excited with Polywell" said someone.
"Polywell is not financed because of concpiracy of oil companies or mainstream scientists"

Where did you hear that? Polywell is financed because of a conspiracy of government bureaucrats and the military-industrial complex.

If Polywell would be a really promising idea, its financing would be on orders higher.
If you talk about military-industrial complex (US NAVY), the total "financing" of Polywell does not exceed the cost of 2, 3 or max 5 Harpoon missiles.
You call this "financing"?

I like american tax payer's dither: "I am financing with couple millions of others".
Actually, who asks them?

I don't think this is necessarily true.

The Polywell idea suffers from the same sort of prejudices that proponents of cold fusion face. There may or may not be some true worth in both ideas, but the drama associated with them makes anyone hoping to be taken seriously stay far away from them.

In the cold fusion case, it's the Fleischmann–Pons debacle, and in the Polywell case it's the damning Todd Rider thesis.

[KitemanSA]

In the cold fusion case, it's the Fleischmann–Pons debacle, and in the Polywell case it's the damning Todd Rider thesis.

I am struck by an odd coincidence. Todd Rider... Tom Riddle... similar names, similar evil intent?

[KitemanSA]

I've been wondering about this lately. Does anyone have an impression of how fast the physics are on that? I know it's generally believed some important physics are so fast that the quarter-millisecond WB-6/7 pulses at beta = 1 are essentially steady-state, but I don't know if this is one of them. I lean toward thinking ion-collisional processes would be but I don't really know.

IIRC, both Dr B and Dr N have suggested that WB6 was effectively steady-state. And if it had enough time to knock the electrons off a neutral gas, bring the cold electrons up to energy, and achieve steady state, it seems likely that annealing would have happened in that time too. Just a thought.

[Joseph Chikva]

The Polywell idea suffers from the same sort of prejudices that proponents of cold fusion face. There may or may not be some true worth in both ideas, but the drama associated with them makes anyone hoping to be taken seriously stay far away from them.

In the cold fusion case, it's the Fleischmann–Pons debacle, and in the Polywell case it's the damning Todd Rider thesis.

At least Polywell's concept is based on well known for me physics.
Unlike cold fusion.
I never heard about Todd Rider's thesis, I have already downloaded that. It seems as serious. But contains 306 pages.
So, it needs the time and also the intend for reading.
May be I will read. Sometimes I am too lazy when do not know the purpose why I should do something.

[rcain]

...
If Polywell would be a really promising idea, its financing would be on orders higher.

like ITER you mean

unfortunately, the 'real-politik' of science does not seem/is not always 'rational'.

(though it is always easier to claim such things with 'hind-sight').

If you talk about military-industrial complex (US NAVY), the total "financing" of Polywell does not exceed the cost of 2, 3 or max 5 Harpoon missiles.
You call this "financing"?

agreed. it is a disgrace. but unfortunately, missiles are one of the Navy's first priorities; energy production is way down their list. so we are pretty 'thankful' they are funding any of it at all.

I like american tax payer's dither: "I am financing with couple millions of others".
Actually, who asks them?

(dither?)

who asks them? true. they are not asked. maybe it is just as well, since most tax payers are even greater idiots than the politicians they elect. i think that is the universal truth.

IMHO, if money really followed the most truly promising ideas, big chunks of ITER and NIF budget would be redistributed to the likes of Eric Lerner, John Slough, and others - hell, even Famulus.

But hey ho. We can but bitch about the situation. This is the world we live in.

[rcain]

I've been wondering about this lately. Does anyone have an impression of how fast the physics are on that? I know it's generally believed some important physics are so fast that the quarter-millisecond WB-6/7 pulses at beta = 1 are essentially steady-state, but I don't know if this is one of them. I lean toward thinking ion-collisional processes would be but I don't really know.

IIRC, both Dr B and Dr N have suggested that WB6 was effectively steady-state. And if it had enough time to knock the electrons off a neutral gas, bring the cold electrons up to energy, and achieve steady state, it seems likely that annealing would have happened in that time too. Just a thought.

my recollection also - Bussard assumed (a few thousand ion orbits ~== 1mS) ~== 'steady state' - for the purpose of simplifying calculations. it remains to be seen whether that was a 'reasonable' assumption in practice, but it was at least 'reasoned' in his analysis.

[vankirkc]

The Polywell idea suffers from the same sort of prejudices that proponents of cold fusion face. There may or may not be some true worth in both ideas, but the drama associated with them makes anyone hoping to be taken seriously stay far away from them.

In the cold fusion case, it's the Fleischmann–Pons debacle, and in the Polywell case it's the damning Todd Rider thesis.

At least Polywell's concept is based on well known for me physics.
Unlike cold fusion.
I never heard about Todd Rider's thesis, I have already downloaded that. It seems as serious. But contains 306 pages.
So, it needs the time and also the intend for reading.
May be I will read. Sometimes I am too lazy when do not know the purpose why I should do something.

You can read a summary of Todd's papers as it relates to Polywell here: http://www.fusor.net/board/view.php?bn= ... 1181660470.

Some hypothesizing has been done in these forums about how to address the Bremsstrahlung loss problem, or alternatively why the Polywell technology doesn't actually fall into the domain of Todd's thesis. Obviously most of the people here are optimistic.

For my own part, I think the Polywell thing is a full employment scheme for elderly LANL physicists.

[rcain]

...
I never heard about Todd Rider's thesis, I have already downloaded that. It seems as serious. But contains 306 pages....

IMO, Tod Rider's thesis is the best place to start if you wish seriously to formulate a 'critique' of Bussard's work. Be warned however, it represents only the starting point for a long chain of technical arguments between some of the most knowledgeable people in the field. It is also claimed to be a bit of a 'red-herring' (false starting place), by IEC proponents, since Rider makes assumptions about LTE and plasma neutrality, which are specifically 'not the case' by design.

[Joseph Chikva]

IMO, Tod Rider's thesis is the best place to start if you wish seriously to formulate a 'critique' of Bussard's work.

I have no such interest.
And I said that may be I will read and may be not.

[Joseph Chikva]

...
If Polywell would be a really promising idea, its financing would be on orders higher.

like ITER you mean

unfortunately, the 'real-politik' of science does not seem/is not always 'rational'.

Technologies developing in ITER and NIF program’s frames may be used in others - more successful.
And I am sure that making decision people's behavior is more rational than you think.
And the reason is more primitive.
They do not see real promising concept at this moment.
At least Polywell and Focus Fusion developers (Bussard and Lerner) could not ensure them.
• TOKAMAK can achieve breakeven only if its confinement time will exceed about 600s.
• NIF - low efficiency of lasers.
• LIF - problems with beams focusing.
• HIF - do not know