10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

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TallDave
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by TallDave »

Thanks Axil.
I mention a few of them in the last chapter. I mention Defkalion which I have an enormous difficulty to assess all the time. I still have strong doubts about Defkalion, but they have been the one that have seemed to have something close to Rossi that I knew of. But I would not say that I am sure that they have it; on the contrary, I have several doubts about what they have, or have not. And then you have Brillouin Energy and Blacklight power, and I know very little about them. There is this Finnish company that I mention which released a patent application. I don’t know what they had but I learned through contacts which I have that these people are qualified scientists; that doesn’t mean or say anything. I don’t know if there is competition.
Had not heard of the Finnish patent before. Starting to be more optimistic that someone is going to get close enough to understanding LENR to produce a design they can actually move product with.

Meanwhile, at the Rossi circus:
Rossi says that he has a team of international scientists that are planning to do another round of tests on the E-Cat. Their tests should “end in March,” with a peer-reviewed report to follow sometime after that.
Looking forward to that, haven't heard much about it.
n*kBolt*Te = B**2/(2*mu0) and B^.25 loss scaling? Or not so much? Hopefully we'll know soon...

Stubby
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Stubby »

TallDave wrote:I thought it was interesting that NRL claimed the other day to have a process to produce jet fuel from seawater for $3-$6, for which they were not immediately condemned by all right-thinking people.

I wonder how Industrial Heat is faring with Rossi's design? I suspect not well, no one seems to have the kind of solid theoretical grasp needed for effective mass production.
Because it is a well known process.
However it is endothermic meaning it needs outside power to work. It is not something claiming to be 'free power'. I wonder how big a co2 conversion plant needs to be to satisfying a carrier's air group during war time level operations? Would that fit into the space liberated by the jet fuel tanks?

Contrast with the Ecat, which is supposedly a better than unity unknown exothermic process.

The 'lack of condemnation' here is just people not reacting to blather in the press and understanding the science behind the claims.
Last edited by Stubby on Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Everything is bullshit unless proven otherwise. -A.C. Beddoe

Axil
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Axil »

TallDave wrote:I thought it was interesting that NRL claimed the other day to have a process to produce jet fuel from seawater for $3-$6, for which they were not immediately condemned by all right-thinking people.

I wonder how Industrial Heat is faring with Rossi's design? I suspect not well, no one seems to have the kind of solid theoretical grasp needed for effective mass production.
I think that the limitation on COP that leads to your skepticism is simply a materials issue. For the Ni/H reactor; both Rossi and DGT, if the reactor temperature gets beyond a certain safe limit, it will take off and melt down.

Ridding the razor back of criticality is not conducive to high performance.

Fusion is hard on materials. In my opinion. if more fusion friendly refractory type materials are used in the structure of these Ni/H reactors, their performance in terms of COP will increase to such a high level that reactor credibility born on the wings of high COP will be self evident.

Many improvements in terms of reactor hardening can be made to these reactors, now that we know this LENR reaction is real.

The poor performance of the past need not be a permanent albatross to be forever hung around the necks of DGT, Rossi, and others.

For all interested in LENR, be patent and positive. Rome was not built in a day.

TallDave
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by TallDave »

Stubby wrote:
TallDave wrote:I thought it was interesting that NRL claimed the other day to have a process to produce jet fuel from seawater for $3-$6, for which they were not immediately condemned by all right-thinking people.

I wonder how Industrial Heat is faring with Rossi's design? I suspect not well, no one seems to have the kind of solid theoretical grasp needed for effective mass production.
Because it is a well known process.
However it is endothermic meaning it needs outside power to work. It is not something claiming to be 'free power'. I wonder how build a co2 coversion plant needs to be to satisfying a carrier's air group during war time level operations? Would that fit into the space liberated by the jet fuel tanks?

Contrast with the Ecat, which is supposedly a better than unity unknown exothermic process.

The 'lack of condemnation' here is just people not reacting to blather in the press and understanding the science behind the claims.
Well, similar processes have been around a long time, but NRL claims this is a novel process that took ten years to develop and will take another ten to productize. And its endothermic nature is what makes the claims so implausible: this novel process is supposedly so close to unity it will be cheaper than producing jet fuel in refineries from oil pumped out of the ground -- which, let's note, is an exothermic process. So basically they're claiming they can economically replace an exothermic fuel production process with an endothermic one, on a water platform, right at the point when the U.S. is poised to become the world's #1 oil producer. Fortunately they gave everyone a nice long ten-year window to forget this technology exists.

Also, LENR is neither "free power" nor unknown. It's not well-understood, but numerous experimental results exist.

Now this is not to pick on NRL or these guys in particular, or to promote Rossi (who probably does not have a viable product), it's just to point out lots of new technology comes with implausible claims, whether in industry or government labs. A lot of the hostility to Rossi seems not to stem from any particular aspect of the technology, but from the over-enthusiastic reception he gets from many supporters, and his own checkered past.

Heck, Lerner was supposedly going to have a net power focus fusion machine... in 2010. And people still give him money.
-------
Axil -- Maybe. I suspect they may run into the same issues BLP did, which apparently involved having to replace the nickel much more often than they had planned. BLP obviously had a terrible theory (fractional electron states?) but there's always an infinite number of wrong theories...
n*kBolt*Te = B**2/(2*mu0) and B^.25 loss scaling? Or not so much? Hopefully we'll know soon...

ladajo
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by ladajo »

TallDave wrote:no one seems to have the kind of solid theoretical grasp needed for effective mass production.
Or it just doesn't do what he claims.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

TallDave
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by TallDave »

ladajo wrote:
TallDave wrote:no one seems to have the kind of solid theoretical grasp needed for effective mass production.
Or it just doesn't do what he claims.
Probably not. But one could say the same of most claims for most new technologies.

But it's one thing to say e-CAT's not going to live up Rossi's claims that it will revolutionize energy production, and another to say his LENR results are fraudulent, and yet another to say all LENR results are fraudulent.
n*kBolt*Te = B**2/(2*mu0) and B^.25 loss scaling? Or not so much? Hopefully we'll know soon...

ladajo
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by ladajo »

Yes, yes and yes.

And as you well know, I think he is just plain full of shit.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Axil
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Axil »

Jed Rothwell: An insider reviews the Lewan book:
There is a lot of great stuff in this book. The account is accurate as far as I know. You never can tell where the truth lies with Rossi, but this is pretty much what I have heard from various people. Lewan downplays the severity of some of the incidents, such as NASA's visit to Rossi.

The parts about Rossi's long-suffering friends and supporters are true. The parts about long-suffering, heroic Jim Dunn are true.

The book makes Mike Melich and me look bad in places with regard to Defkalion. We were too trusting. Oh well. They had some impressive people and equipment at first. They seemed promising. As far as I can tell, they are are now a farce. The impressive people left, 'cause they weren't paid. It's that money thing again, and the old credit rating problem. Hot air is no substitute for cash.

Mats Lewan has guts publishing this, and his earlier reports. He must have been attacked by many people.

The parts about the 1-MW reactor test are well known to readers here. Lewan describes his own sense of confusion at the fact that the test was inconclusive. Even when the test was underway I could see it was yet another inconclusive non-demonstration.

I think I know why Rossi usually does unconvincing demonstrations. Lewan quotes me speculating about this, and then he says Rossi confirmed what I said. From the book:

Jed: "Edison knew he had solved the problem, but he had a lot of work left, [so] more intellectual property [was] there for the taking. Low hanging fruit. He did not want his competition to take him too seriously. On the other hand, he needed more big bucks from the investors and banks. It was a delicate balancing act: how to keep up the excitement while triggering the lowest possible level of serious competition. Rossi is doing exactly the same thing. I recognize that is his strategy. He is hardly keeping it secret. Countless inventors and companies have done this. It does not mystify me at all. To people unfamiliar with business it looks crazy."

Lewan: I asked Rossi about the matter and he replied bluntly that it was true.

(Actually, I knew this was his strategy because Rossi and I discussed the matter and he sort-of, kind-of, grudgingly acknowledged it is. Mike McKubre also recognized this. As I said, it wasn't like Rossi was keeping it a secret.)

This strategy is getting old! Still it seems to have worked for him. He has financial backing now, and yet 99.99% of the world thinks he is a crazy or a scam artist.

I hope the Swedes have done a careful, totally convincing job this time. It is about time for this strategy to come to an end. Edison eventually drew it to close with the incandescent light. He used the most effective method imaginable. He puts lights up in his his workshop in Menlo Park, NJ, and strung them on polls outside. People started coming from miles around to see them in the winter evenings and nights. It must have been an extraordinary sight for people who had never seen anything as bright as an electric light. The railroads had to schedule extra trains from New York to accommodate the crowds. The naysayers finally shut up.

There are some controversies described in the book which strike me as comical. They remind me of debates over whether Shakespeare wrote his plays or whether it was another man of the same name. For example, Lewan describes Rossi's claim that he had a factory in Florida where they manufactured components for the 1 MW reactor. Some people say he did not have a factory because they could not find it. Rossi claims he disguised it by making it look like it was manufacturing some conventional equipment.

The truth or falsity of this claim does not make the slightest bit of difference. Maybe the factory was not in Florida. Maybe it was in New England or Poland, or Palmero. Who cares where it is? Here is what we know. Someone manufactured more than 50 of those square reactors that went into the 1 MW reactor. Rossi could not have made them by himself. He is a workaholic but even he could not pull that off. Somebody, somewhere made all that equipment. I do not see why it matters who it was or where they live.

I do not see why he would lie about the factory being in Florida.

That would fit the pattern of Rossi's earlier ventures with Petrodragon. That's the Italian way to do business.

Sure, the factory could be anywhere. My point is that it had to be somewhere, not nowhere. So who cares where?

mvanwink5
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by mvanwink5 »

Ah, yes, the secret factory disguised as a hotdog stand. These guys are always dodging behind the curtain of secrecy. Any of the believers care to explain how the device works? Right, it's secret, only Gandalf knows the mystery on how it works.
Near term, cheap, dark horse fusion hits the air waves, GF - TED, LM - Announcement. The race is on.

ladajo
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by ladajo »

It does not work.

Rossi is a scam.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Betruger
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Betruger »

Not only does it not work - or Rossi would be doing more than backpedaling - but we don't even know why it doesn't work. So Rossi's managed to do just about everything wrong.
You can do anything you want with laws except make Americans obey them. | What I want to do is to look up S. . . . I call him the Schadenfreudean Man.

Axil
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Axil »

You Rossi slammers, how does it feel to know that you are just the unwitting tools in Rossi's master plan?

You worked so hard… all those many hours… to make smooth the road to Rossi’s ultimate success. isn't it ironic?

mvanwink5
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by mvanwink5 »

Rossi has a master plan that he let you in on? Or is that another excuse for Rossi not delivering? Perhaps the secret Florida factory is just making hotdogs... :D
Near term, cheap, dark horse fusion hits the air waves, GF - TED, LM - Announcement. The race is on.

Betruger
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Betruger »

Axil wrote:Rossi slammers
There's nothing to slam.
how does it feel to know that you are just the unwitting tools in Rossi's master plan?
If by tool you mean bystanders exchanging electronic messages... I guess these electrons are the secret sauce for E-Cats.
You worked so hard…
Yes this beer is so hard to lift...
all those many hours…
Seeing LENR threads getting bumped with NOTHING substantial to report
to make smooth the road to Rossi’s ultimate success. isn't it ironic?
It's ironic that you pretend to know so much when you know no more than any of us heathens. The only road to Rossi's success is on the bridge he's sold you.
You can do anything you want with laws except make Americans obey them. | What I want to do is to look up S. . . . I call him the Schadenfreudean Man.

paperburn1
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by paperburn1 »

:D Mystics rules of life
If you can't point out the sucker at the poker table then its You!
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

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