10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

polyill wrote:
KitemanSA wrote: If your "judgements" were along the line of "his data don't support his claims", I would ha[v]e to agree with you and as I understand it, that would be a valid scientific statement.

But people like you are saying "he is a liar". They then present trash as evidence and are annoyed with me when I point out their "evidence" is trash.

THEY are making the "positive claim" here (he IS a liar), one that needs evidence to corroberate. Haven't seen any yet.

And no, that doesn't make me "holier than the Pope", just righteous enough! ;)
I fail to understand why my OPINION must be a "valid scientific statement". Really.
Your opinion need not be a valid statement. But a statement "He is a liar" is a statement of purported FACT. Statements of fact should be be valid.
polyill wrote: Rossi's opinion on capabilities and performance of the so-called E-Cat,
the way he presents it, IMPLIES scientific validity, mine does not.
Not arguing with that. I see nothing to support his contentions. That does not make him a liar. Deluded maybe, correct, maybe. A liar MAYBE. His lack of veracity is no more proven than his contention vis-a-vis the E-Cat; at least that I have seen so far.
polyill wrote: Likewise, since I make no scientific claims, but rather present an opinion, what you call evidence is rather information (partly factual and partly not) relevant with regard to my opinion, which I choose to present.
If what you present is an admitted opinion, then fine, you are entitled to your opinion, and you may very well be correct.
polyill wrote: You can call it "trash", if that is the attitude you prefer, but that's not what annoys me.
Your righteousness, OTOH does. Frankly, it defies its own purpose
(like Human Rights Watch does by defending terrorists), exercised by you.
We don't seem to have a dog in this hunt. We both have the opinion that Rossi is probably wrong. I have no issue with anyone who shares our OPINION. My concern is the self-righteousness of those who make statements of "fact" and fail to support them.
polyill wrote: Your claim of lack of evidence for Rossi being a liar just proves my point:
all you care about is being righteous, regardless of the matter of discussion,
Now you have me confused. you say that I am righteous as if that were a bad thing.
polyill wrote: even at the price of loosing the matter of discussion completely
and claiming the Elephant is not there, 'cause "they" can't tell you
how many liters of elephantity does it currently contain.
What elephant?
polyill wrote:
That is awfully troll-like
So you think it is all right for folks to make libelous statements in the forum, but not all right to point out their folly? If that is "troll-like" paint me a troll. But that ain't like any definition of "troll" I've ever seen.
polyill wrote: And Kiteman, of course it does not make you holier than the Pope;
You can't be holier than the Pope, that's the point about this saying,
mmmkay? :roll:
Wha?? You implied I had the URGE to be holier. I said I have no such urge. You say "of course I can't be holier than the pope, that is the point." The point SEEMS to be that you can't track your own discussion. The only "holier than the pope"-ishness around here is tween your ears. How this is "trollish" on MY part excapes me.
oh, the urge to be holier than the Pope...

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

ladajo wrote:And tell me again why Rossi can't just put it in a tub of water in a public demo?
Since none of us are mind readers, we can't really tell you why.

But one reason he MIGHT not do such a thing is that he doesn't WANT a public demonstration of a successful unit. If he gives one without IP protection, every company in the world will work to develop their own unit and someone might stumble onto his secret... if there is one.

You have reapeaatedly maintained another reason.

We could both be wrong.

Just a thought.

rcain
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Post by rcain »

KitemanSA wrote:
ladajo wrote:And tell me again why Rossi can't just put it in a tub of water in a public demo?
Since none of us are mind readers, we can't really tell you why.

But one reason he MIGHT not do such a thing is that he doesn't WANT a public demonstration of a successful unit. If he gives one without IP protection, every company in the world will work to develop their own unit and someone might stumble onto his secret... if there is one.
...
i think the suggestion that Rossi is 'failing on purpose' is a wholly ridiculous and illogical suggestion. what is wrong with you Kite?

if he had wanted secrecy, Rossi would have kept his bloody mouth shut, from the start. Yet, in reality, from the start he makes as much song and dance and circus of his 'enterprise', as he possibly can.

no my friend, the reason Rossi appears so incompetent and full of shit, is because he is. plain and simple. IMHO.

polyill
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Post by polyill »

KitemanSA wrote:Wha?? You implied I had the URGE to be holier.
I said I have no such urge. You say "of course I can't be holier than the pope, that is the point."
The point SEEMS to be that you can't track your own discussion.
The only "holier than the pope"-ishness around here is tween your ears.
How this is "trollish" on MY part excapes me.
I implied you are trying to be "Holier than the Pope" (HTTP) not holy, which are obviously not the same thing.
HTTP in this context means being OVERLY righteous. And yes, too much of anything is bad enough.

You are demanding of people to treat a non-scientific issue with scientific rigor, just to show them
how unrighteous they are in contrast to you, THE RIGHTEOUS.
I recon that is your hypertrophied urge of righteousness, in other words urge to be HTTP.

You never said you "don't have such urge", you said:
"no, that doesn't make me "holier than the Pope", just righteous enough!",
which statement shows that

a) You don't get the meaning of HTTP or my whole point
b) You do have an urge to be [overly] righteous

Your "enough" is too much IMHO. You twist other people's words and break certain phrases out of their context,
then make claims over, with, again the sole purpose of appearing more righteous than others,
which I perceive as kind of trolling. You might like the word "demagogue" more. Have it then.

Rossi is a liar, since he's been caught lying / twisting the truth many times in the past. He was even convicted for it.
Does he lie about a particular LENR implementation? I don't know, it does not matter.
The man behaves like a liar, talks like a liar and looks like a liar while talking like one.

He is a liar. Maybe it is just a symptom of an illness or maybe he is being forced into this.
Regardless of the reasons why, he is.

Even if the E-Cat is proven to work one day, that would still not unmake Rossi a liar.

You can have a "last argument" in this exchange. I am sure you will, but I don't really care.


Dixi

EDITED for temper

seedload
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Post by seedload »

KitemanSA wrote:Your opinion need not be a valid statement. But a statement "He is a liar" is a statement of purported FACT. Statements of fact should be be valid.
Saying "he is a liar" is not necessarily a statement of fact. In the majority of contexts, it is a statement of opinion. On a general discussion forum on the internet it is almost certainly a statement of opinion. You are incorrect to assign the label of 'fact' to every statement simply because it lacks qualifications such as "in my opinion". You ignore the context of the discussion. Your insistence on continuing to do so as the foundation of your continued arguments is more of an indication of your inability to engage in normal conversation than an indication of others inability to be clear.

Rossi has made numerous dubious statements that lack credibility and consistency which leads a lot of people to conclude that he is a liar. Why would that bother you? Your not arguing Rossi anymore. You are arguing how to argue. Your lecturing on how to talk. You don't even bother to discuss Rossi anymore. In fact, you don't even read the listed statements by Rossi that have given people the strong opinion that he is clearly a liar. But you still have time to assign 'fact' to every non-qualified statement of opinion just so that you can say, "That's not a fact." Wow, brilliant! So boring!
Stick the thing in a tub of water! Sheesh!

polyill
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Post by polyill »

:oops:

JoeP
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Post by JoeP »

From what I have seen here, my opinion is that Kiteman enjoys friction and making discussion board posting a competition. That seems to be his game and he enjoys it. Yet logically he is right about how things should be stated.

X is Y is a statement of fact.

Yes it is boring and redundant to constantly qualify yourself. X is likely Y.

I'd say most discussion boards the matter of opinion is implied and strict logic is not necessarily expected. However the nature of having a discussion in a scientific area tends to favor precision over implication.

303
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Post by 303 »

without wanting to sound like a stuck record

rossi has conviction for fraud

therefore odds on certainty that 'rossi is a liar' is a statement of fact, and a correct one.

my opinion is if he has anything it was stolen from someone else idea, or he found by accident while trying to bake a cake, if it worked at 30x power his dodgy plumbing would blow up and kill everyone in the room, his last 'sale' to the military should be clue enough, the conviction another, the diploma mill another, the half-truths, the lack of anything substantial, nasa .. came and went without a word

im all for fair trial, objectivity , but slap 'HELLO, MCFLY'


tom's position is more correct, isnt skeptism important to science anyway, no evidence == derision until grudgingly accepted as fact , better to skip the whole 'fusion' angle and class it as anomalous heat

as no one really understands the nano/quantum stuff, cant rule it out, but unlikely the great saviour of mankind is e-cat powered starships

polyill
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Post by polyill »

From what I have seen here, my opinion is that Kiteman enjoys friction and making discussion board posting a competition. That seems to be his game and he enjoys it. Yet logically he is right about how things should be stated.

X is Y is a statement of fact.

Yes it is boring and redundant to constantly qualify yourself. X is likely Y.

I'd say most discussion boards the matter of opinion is implied and strict logic is not necessarily expected. However the nature of having a discussion in a scientific area tends to favor precision over implication.
the discussion of Rossi being a liar lies in a non-scientific area, unless you wanna' go strictly Rhetoric, but why would anyone want such a thing, right? :?

the interesting parts of such discussion would be "why is he being a liar" and "what consequences could this have", but alas, we are stuck on the obvious part of "is he a liar or not".

the statement "X is Y" might be a model of "Rossi is a liar", but it is too blunt a generalization, too reduced, to be an instrument for an interesting analysis of the matter.

Just as you said, boring and redundant.

Axil
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Post by Axil »

KitemanSA wrote:
ladajo wrote:And tell me again why Rossi can't just put it in a tub of water in a public demo?
Since none of us are mind readers, we can't really tell you why.

But one reason he MIGHT not do such a thing is that he doesn't WANT a public demonstration of a successful unit. If he gives one without IP protection, every company in the world will work to develop their own unit and someone might stumble onto his secret... if there is one.

You have reapeaatedly maintained another reason.

We could both be wrong.

Just a thought.

Kiteman is wise as usual.

I believe that Rossi wanted to sell to the US government all along. He had to make just enough noise in repeated private demos to attract and interest just right the people to gain visibility and access to government decision makers.

He had to stay away from general definitive public demos to keep the rush to duplicate his process to a minimum.

There has been a good deal of private duplication attempts but these lack credibility even if these replications work but the big public companies, the ones that make for instant credibility still think Rossi is a kook and will not devote money to LENR R&D which is what Rossi wants.

As for Rossi’s blogging, it just a weakness that many suffer from. It does not look like his reputation has been improved by this activity.

seedload
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Post by seedload »

Axil wrote:Kiteman is wise as usual.
Says it all. The team has each others backs.

Parallel hears no one else's arguments. Kiteman sees every unlikely alternative scenario. Axil speaks the fantastic speculative extensions.

Image
Stick the thing in a tub of water! Sheesh!

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

rcain wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:
ladajo wrote:And tell me again why Rossi can't just put it in a tub of water in a public demo?
Since none of us are mind readers, we can't really tell you why.

But one reason he MIGHT not do such a thing is that he doesn't WANT a public demonstration of a successful unit. If he gives one without IP protection, every company in the world will work to develop their own unit and someone might stumble onto his secret... if there is one.
...
i think the suggestion that Rossi is 'failing on purpose' is a wholly ridiculous and illogical suggestion. what is wrong with you Kite?

if he had wanted secrecy, Rossi would have kept his bloody mouth shut, from the start. Yet, in reality, from the start he makes as much song and dance and circus of his 'enterprise', as he possibly can.

no my friend, the reason Rossi appears so incompetent and full of shit, is because he is. plain and simple. IMHO.
For quite a while, the reports have been that Rossi never wanted to present to the public but only did so becasue his dear friend (Forcardi?) was in the final stages of cancer and they weren't sure how long he would live. Thus he did a small demo for his friend's sake, and things exploded from there. So, it is entirely plausible that in subsequent "demos" were staged to REDUCE public credibility. "What's wrong with you", rcain?

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

[/quote]
polyill wrote: ...
{Yada yada yada}
...
Rossi is a liar, since he's been caught lying / twisting the truth many times in the past. He was even convicted for it.
Data please. Ladajo provided almost all Rossi's quotes, and in the cursory scan I gave them, I saw nothing that most folks would take as a lie if the person making the statement were their friend or someone they admired. But it is easy to use lax judgement against someone you DON'T like or whom you have done ill to in some other way.
polyill wrote: He is a liar. Maybe it is just a symptom of an illness or maybe he is being forced into this.
Regardless of the reasons why, he is.
Data please.
Last edited by KitemanSA on Fri May 25, 2012 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

seedload wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:Your opinion need not be a valid statement. But a statement "He is a liar" is a statement of purported FACT. Statements of fact should be be valid.
Saying "he is a liar" is not necessarily a statement of fact. In the majority of contexts, it is a statement of opinion.
Often it is a statment of opinion by little people who want to make their opinion APPEAR to be "true". In other words, THEY are the liar when they make statements of opinion SEEM to be statements of fact.

So is it your "opinion" or a fact? Perhaps you hould use the language more clearly.

rcain
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Post by rcain »

KitemanSA wrote:... For quite a while, the reports have been that Rossi never wanted to present to the public but only did so becasue his dear friend (Forcardi?) was in the final stages of cancer and they weren't sure how long he would live. Thus he did a small demo for his friend's sake, and things exploded from there. So, it is entirely plausible that in subsequent "demos" were staged to REDUCE public credibility. "What's wrong with you", rcain?
i do not believe that for one moment. (ie. for me - it is not plausible. thus if indeed there exists any reliable citation/quotation for your claim, which i doubt, they simply represent yet more lies).

question: would you buy a used car from Rossi?
question: would you buy a nuclear reactor from Rossi? (and install it in your basement).

just how 'bent' does a person have to be Kite before you distrust them?

what's wrong with me? i fear the longer this charade goes on the more it seems peoples minds and better judgement are being warped - both ways. i call a spade a spade and a stupid crook a stupid crook.

(ps, i still do not discount however, that there may be something to LENR and that Rossi may have tripped over it - but like most research in the field the problem is one of proving 'consistency' - not that Rossi bothers much about either proof or consistency).

ps. it seems 'most plausible' to me that the only reason Rossi might have claimed to be a 'great friend' {sic} of (the dying) Forcadi, is that he hoped to make personal financial gain from the life-long work of the aforementioned. so yet more lies - this time to Forcardi.

no, your suggestion is nonsense - IMO - he is nothing but a confidence trickster who buys letters after his name from a 'degree mill', makes unsubstantiable claims about 'snake oil' potions, and lies in front of a judge, (amongst other things) in pursuit of self enrichment.
Last edited by rcain on Thu May 24, 2012 4:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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