10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[KitemanSA]

But again, no BEC of photons here folks.

Wow, you have REALLY gone off on a side comment.
How bout a BEC of excitons. Or Polaritons. Can those exist?

I still think a laser is equivalent to a BEC, but that is inconsequential to our basic discussion.

Do we still have a basic discussion going on? I thought you just said that our positions are not compatible and each one of us will keep his own.
Did I understand wrong?

I thought so, the question of the allowable temperature of a BEC. I was stating that an Exciton BEC may be in the 500K regime and you made a statement along the lines of "no way". Yada Yada.

My suspicion (konjecture) is that if LENR in general and Rossi's form in specific is REAL, then BECs of some sort are involved.

[Crawdaddy]

I see no confusion. The ground state of the cavity is the TM00 mode and the BEC forms when the cavity is irradiated such that the photon population in the ground state is large.

What you do not understand is that there is no ground state here. There is a "lowest possible energy state" which is dependent from the size of the cavity.
Your failing to understand this makes any additional attempt from my side to explain to you the difference between this phenomena and a BEC pretty useless.

I see no one actually disputing the fact that this system can be described mathematically as a 2D BEC. The link you provided does not even address the case of photons.

I see no one actually disputing that oranges and apples are different judging from their external shape.
They actually need to bite them to understand that there is a difference.
Is not hard to understand, try to put some effort into it.

The link I provided, as I wrote, was just a quick attempt to explain to you some of the main issues surrounding the definitions of BEC from photons and derived particles. I see that the attempt failed, or that there was never any interest from you to actually get to the root of the issue.

I find your arguments unconvincing and poorly sourced. You have failed to back up your statement "no BEC here folks!".

Start understanding what a BEC is, when you have that clear you will need no source to understand where you are mixing things up.

So just to be clear.

You state that the TM00 mode of the cavity is not the ground state and that a BEC of photons is not possible by definition without any supporting citations. Your position is that there is an unknown condensed state of photons that are not in the ground state, but behave mathematically and experimentally exactly like a 2D BEC. You have provided no published evidence that this is even possible theoretically or experimentally

The paper shows how treating the TM00 mode as the ground state in the dye doped resonant cavity generates a condensed state that behaves exactly like a 2D BEC both mathematically and experimentally. This has not been disputed by any of the papers 26 citations.

Please continue wave your magic wand around and rant about how I just don't want to learn.

[bhl]

Back to the Chan method. While I think there are a lot of missing details, he does give an interesting description of a "claimed working device" with a minimum of ingredients (MgH2, Ni, Cu, Fe.)

I posted a summary here:
http://www.ecatplanet.net/showthread.ph ... i-H-fusion

Can anyone recommend a signal generator that supports multiple waveforms and has a enough power to drive an induction coil. (Ebay?) I don't want to spend a fortune, but want something that will be able to heat and/or resonate the metal powders.

Can anyone provide better directions on building an induction coil? Chan says he winds 24 gauge wire around a 3" glass tube. Insulated? Non-insulated? How many wraps? 24 gauge the best for vibrating nano-powders within a copper tube?

Chan also mentions possible catalysts antimony trisulfide and lithium borohydride. I've also heard someone mention antimony trioxide. Anyone care to speculate if these make sense?

I'd love to get constructive comments on how to attempt to replicate this. (Yes, I realize adding the keyword "constructive" is a bit passive aggressive and not likely to reduce snippy responses. )

Thanks in advance...

[Crawdaddy]

Back to the Chan method. While I think there are a lot of missing details, he does give an interesting description of a "claimed working device" with a minimum of ingredients (MgH2, Ni, Cu, Fe.)

I posted a summary here:
http://www.ecatplanet.net/showthread.ph ... i-H-fusion

Can anyone recommend a signal generator that supports multiple waveforms and has a enough power to drive an induction coil. (Ebay?) I don't want to spend a fortune, but want something that will be able to heat and/or resonate the metal powders.

Can anyone provide better directions on building an induction coil? Chan says he winds 24 gauge wire around a 3" glass tube. Insulated? Non-insulated? How many wraps? 24 gauge the best for vibrating nano-powders within a copper tube?

Chan also mentions possible catalysts antimony trisulfide and lithium borohydride. I've also heard someone mention antimony trioxide. Anyone care to speculate if these make sense?

I'd love to get constructive comments on how to attempt to replicate this. (Yes, I realize adding the keyword "constructive" is a bit passive aggressive and not likely to reduce snippy responses. )

Thanks in advance...

If you are handy with electronics you should be able find a good DIY reference on the net (they are popular projects for hobbyists). An easier and cheaper way might be to buy an 30 dollar induction cooktop from walmart and hack the frequency generator.

The gauge of the wire should not matter at all. It should be insulated. If you aren't familiar with electronics, this project could be dangerous for you.

If you don't have any electronics experience, I recommend seeking out a local electronics club or hacker space. For a small membership fee you might be able to borrow the equipment you need (someone there probably already made an small induction heater for fun), or even get some help from other members replicating the Chan method.

As for the catalysts, I have no idea.

NOTE:

Be very aware, that if you heat MgH2 to 400C the equilibrium pressure of hydrogen in you sealed copper tube will be 20bar. It would really suck to have it explode and splatter all that extremely hot oil all over the place.

It is pretty clear that this Chan guy is not a retard, or he would likely be dead by now.

[Giorgio]

What you do not understand is that there is no ground state here.

Bravo!!! You beat me to it.

If I set a fire to some brush in my back yard the ions generated by the fire may be "ground state" relative to the center of the sun. But they are not in fact in a ground state.

Very difficult concepts for many here - to be sure.

True, unfortunately there is no easy way to explain them, you can only keep repeating the concepts in different ways until the person will have his personal ah-ha moment, than all will become more easy

For me I find it also a good exercise to learn new ways to communicate and absorb knowledge from other people.
Docendo discimus, is a great truth.

Edit: Fixed spelling

[Giorgio]

So just to be clear.

You state that the TM00 mode of the cavity is not the ground state and that a BEC of photons is not possible by definition without any supporting citations. Your position is that there is an unknown condensed state of photons that are not in the ground state, but behave mathematically and experimentally exactly like a 2D BEC. You have provided no published evidence that this is even possible theoretically or experimentally

You are making even more confusion.
Take a step back and think to the definition of TM00.
All what this tells you is that the propagation in the cavity is happening at its lowest possible mode, with a wavelength Lambda/2 grater than the cavity, and hence with a Gaussian beam profile with a constant phase.
It tells you NOTHING about the ground state and adds nothing to the claim of BEC.

The paper shows how treating the TM00 mode as the ground state in the dye doped resonant cavity generates a condensed state that behaves exactly like a 2D BEC both mathematically and experimentally. This has not been disputed by any of the papers 26 citations.

That's exactly the heart of the problem, and that's where the example that Msimon made before fits perfectly.
If you rise the bar of your personal ground state you can be at ground state even in the middle of the sun, but you are NOT at ground state as needed for a BEC.
Unless you have this point clear you will never be able to understand and appreciate what a BEC is.

[Crawdaddy]

So just to be clear.

You state that the TM00 mode of the cavity is not the ground state and that a BEC of photons is not possible by definition without any supporting citations. Your position is that there is an unknown condensed state of photons that are not in the ground state, but behave mathematically and experimentally exactly like a 2D BEC. You have provided no published evidence that this is even possible theoretically or experimentally

You are making even more confusion.
Take a step back and think to the definition of TM00.
All what this tells you is that the propagation in the cavity is happening at its lowest possible mode, with a wavelength Lambda/2 grater than the cavity, and hence with a Gaussian beam profile with a constant phase.
It tells you NOTHING about the ground state and adds nothing to the claim of BEC.

The paper shows how treating the TM00 mode as the ground state in the dye doped resonant cavity generates a condensed state that behaves exactly like a 2D BEC both mathematically and experimentally. This has not been disputed by any of the papers 26 citations.

That's exactly the heart of the problem, and that's where the example that Msimon made before fits perfectly.
If you rise the bar of your personal ground state you can be at ground state even in the middle of the sun, but you are NOT at ground state as needed for a BEC.
Unless you have this point clear you will never be able to understand and appreciate what a BEC is.

The calculated and observed emission from the cavity are both show BEC behavior of photons. Are you saying that the condensed matter in the cavity that behaves exactly like a BEC is not a BEC? If I can "understand and appreciate" this condensate, which behaves exactly like a BEC, can I then appreciate a "real" BEC?

[ScottL]

There's a really good conversation on the physics org forums that has the math as to why 2D BEC's will be destroyed due to divergence of the integral and the requirement of finite systems. I'll link when I get back from my meeting if it isn't already linked by then.

[bhl]

I'm ok with electronics, but I am not a pro. But I'd like to follow Chan's method if possible. I guess I'm wondering if I buy an RFG that has 5, 10, or 20 volts PP will that be enough to heat a powder in a copper tube to 200C.

Be very aware, that if you heat MgH2 to 400C the equilibrium pressure of hydrogen in you sealed copper tube will be 20bar. It would really suck to have it explode and splatter all that extremely hot oil all over the place.

It is pretty clear that this Chan guy is not a retard, or he would likely be dead by now.

If I decide to make my own MgH2 I have a steel pressure vessel and a computer-controlled lab so I can heat stuff up from a long way away. But I may just use my H2 gas. I am going to hold off on the mineral oil bath until I see something happening..

[Axil]

http://www.insidescience.org/research/1-2376

In the Quantum World, Diamonds Can Communicate With Each Other


Oxford physicists using bizarre principle of "entanglement" to cause a change in a diamond that do not touch.

Entanglement has been proven before but what makes the Oxford experiment unique is that concept was demonstrated with substantial solid objects at room temperature. Previous entanglements of matter involved submicroscopic particles, often at cold temperatures.

This experiment employed millimeter-scale diamonds, "not individual atoms, not gaseous clouds," said Ian Walmsley, professor of experimental physics at Oxford's Clarendon Laboratory, one of the international team of researchers.

"I think I can safely say no one understands quantum mechanics," the late physicist Richard Feynman once famously explained.

[MSimon]

bhl,

Can anyone recommend a signal generator that supports multiple waveforms and has a enough power to drive an induction coil. (Ebay?) I don't want to spend a fortune, but want something that will be able to heat and/or resonate the metal powders.

Yeah. I found the bit about the Wavetek suspicious too. Remarked on it up thread.

[bhl]

Yeah. I found the bit about the Wavetek suspicious too. Remarked on it up thread.

The early Rossi prototypes had two heaters... an external one that was visible.. and an internal one that may have been a coil. (His big blue box would be overkill for applying power to a heater--a simple power supply would have been fine--so inside the blue box may have been a frequency/pulsing system.) However Rossi's patent talks about pulsing the pressure of the hydrogen via solenoid... maybe the coil method works better.

Also, on the topic of vibrations and pulsing:
Brian Ahern's patent on just this thing:
http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wipo/A ... 23338.html

So... If I had a signal generator, I could use a test tube of Ni+Cu+Fe powder wrapped with a coil.. turn it on and see what happens...

Thoughts?

[seedload]

So... If I had a signal generator, I could use a test tube of Ni+Cu+Fe powder wrapped with a coil.. turn it on and see what happens...

Thoughts?

Might want to include some shielding, that is if you have any thoughts that this might actually work.

[ScottL]

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=208222

Theorem summary:

Mermin-Wagner theorem tells you that if there is a long-range-order (existence of BEC) in two-dimensional systems, the fluctuations will drive the system to somewhere else, destroying the condensate.

[bhl]

Might want to include some shielding, that is if you have any thoughts that this might actually work.

I can turn it on from 200ft away. But initially I will not include hydrogen or MgH2--just want to see if I can "tune" it to see what creates the most heat.

I would like to test for radiation.. that seems like the surest way to detect nuclear activity versus using calorimetry.

The NASA slides say its most likely "weak interactions and beta decay" and low-level gammas (50-150KeV). Maybe higher bursts of gammas at start/stop? And radioactive byproducts with half-lives around 2-3 hours.

What's an easy way to measure LENR radiation? How about this?
http://www.blackcatsystems.com/GM/geiger_counter.html

Wish there was an electronics library I could use! My wife is beginning to wonder.