10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[paperburn1]

So only people who have observed that Papp engine for extended times, days, week or so, are those who are presently trying to commercially benefit from that Papp engine (Rohner Groupl, LCC)

logistics of fuel source alone kills this device even if it did work.

Any references or is your opinion uninformed?

In all true fullness a fairly uniformed opinion. As he keeps most details secret one can only make assumptions and guesses at best. Aside from the submarine debacle, his primary claimed accomplishment was the development of an engine that ran off a mixture of noble gases consisting essentially of an inert gas mixture of helium, neon, xenon, krypton and argon, with argon constituting approximately 17% of the mixture by volume (wiki quote) so now go down to your local welder supply shop and see what gases are readily available and in what quantity’s. (I weld). In 2010 the total installed electricity generation capacity in the United States was 1,137.3 Gigawatts
Now assume a reasonable quantity of gas need to generate the power needed to sustain this reaction vice the available amounts of helium and argon. Currrenty147 billion standard cubic feet (4.2 billion SCM). At rates of use at that time (72 million SCM per year in the U.S) is enough helium for about 58 years of U.S. use, and less than this at world use rates, Helium must be extracted from natural gas because it is present in air at only a fraction of that of neon, yet the demand for it is far higher. It is estimated that if all neon production were retooled to save helium, that 0.1% of the world's helium demands would be satisfied. Similarly, only 1% of the world's helium demands could be satisfied by re-tooling all air distillation plants Already helium prices have doubled from the year 2000. You get my point. Noble gasses are not very abundant except for maybe argon. The supplies for a sustained infrastructure are not there. But . Helium can be synthesized by bombardment of boron with high-velocity protons, Go polywell

[Axil]

logistics of fuel source alone kills this device even if it did work.

Any references or is your opinion uninformed?

In all true fullness a fairly uniformed opinion. As he keeps most details secret one can only make assumptions and guesses at best. Aside from the submarine debacle, his primary claimed accomplishment was the development of an engine that ran off a mixture of noble gases consisting essentially of an inert gas mixture of helium, neon, xenon, krypton and argon, with argon constituting approximately 17% of the mixture by volume (wiki quote) so now go down to your local welder supply shop and see what gases are readily available and in what quantity’s. (I weld). In 2010 the total installed electricity generation capacity in the United States was 1,137.3 Gigawatts
Now assume a reasonable quantity of gas need to generate the power needed to sustain this reaction vice the available amounts of helium and argon. Currrenty147 billion standard cubic feet (4.2 billion SCM). At rates of use at that time (72 million SCM per year in the U.S) is enough helium for about 58 years of U.S. use, and less than this at world use rates, Helium must be extracted from natural gas because it is present in air at only a fraction of that of neon, yet the demand for it is far higher. It is estimated that if all neon production were retooled to save helium, that 0.1% of the world's helium demands would be satisfied. Similarly, only 1% of the world's helium demands could be satisfied by re-tooling all air distillation plants Already helium prices have doubled from the year 2000. You get my point. Noble gasses are not very abundant except for maybe argon. The supplies for a sustained infrastructure are not there. But . Helium can be synthesized by bombardment of boron with high-velocity protons, Go polywell

Approximate Power density of the papp engine to be licensed for manufacture in 6 months.

Fuel mix in percent

xenon 8.5
krypton 12.5
argon 16.9
neon 26.3
helium 35.8

240 cc of gas mix is required per cylinder/ 480 cc per engine

fuel life 10,000 hours

power rating as tested per engine 278 hp/ 204 kilowatts

2.040.000 kilowatt hours power output

(480)(.358) = 171.84 CC amount of helium per engine.

(2.040.000 kilowatt hours) (171.84) = 11871.51 kilowatt hours/CC

I cubic foot = 28316cc

1 cubic foot of helium = 336,153,677.16 kilowatt hours/cubic foot of helium.

Fuel recycling from ash not considered.

One charge of gas will fuel a car for 144,000 miles.

[ladajo]

Let me know how it works out when you buy one in six months. Oh wait. Odds are there will be none to buy. Then, like you have with Rossi, will you keep preaching, and blindly believing?

[tomclarke]

Does axil not consider that through history, whenever miracles are being sold, the chances they are real have been very very low?

Even lower when these miracles have no substantive verification, as here.

The specifics of this claimed miracle don't budge me upward from the average.

[happyjack27]

Does axil not consider that through history, whenever miracles are being sold, the chances they are real have been very very low?

Even lower when these miracles have no substantive verification, as here.

The specifics of this claimed miracle don't budge me upward from the average.

nuclear power: miracle sold: real
quantum physics: miracle sold: real
...not let's go back a bit.

microscope: miracle sold: real
cathode ray tube: miracle sold: real
evolution: miracle sold to all industrialized countries except for the u.s.: real
heliocentrism...
electricity...
flight...

the list goes on.

having said that, keeping the methods secret is the opposite of science, and nothing that wasn't done scientifically... well, all of those things in my little list there are the result of rigorous science -- and some engineering.

so overall my point is, just because it seems like a miracle to us now doesn't mean it can't be real. as the saying goes: "any sufficiently advanced [science] is indistinguishable from magic". however, all "miracles" so far have been scientific ones, and what i'm seeing here isn't scientific.

i don't mean to discredit the whole LENR field. there are a lot of things that have been done and are being done that are pretty scientifically rigourous. and all the hand-waving dismissing that goes on i find rather un-scientific. we know we have an anomaly, or rather, now, a couple anomalies. whether they are observational or theoretical or experimental or what-have-you, remains to be established. but until a source for the anomolies can be thoroughly explained scientifically, it is still a legitimate and worthy and respectable field of scientific investigation.

[ScottL]

Does axil not consider that through history, whenever miracles are being sold, the chances they are real have been very very low?

Even lower when these miracles have no substantive verification, as here.

The specifics of this claimed miracle don't budge me upward from the average.

nuclear power: miracle sold: real
quantum physics: miracle sold: real
...not let's go back a bit.

microscope: miracle sold: real
cathode ray tube: miracle sold: real
evolution: miracle sold to all industrialized countries except for the u.s.: real
heliocentrism...
electricity...
flight...

the list goes on.

having said that, keeping the methods secret is the opposite of science, and nothing that wasn't done scientifically... well, all of those things in my little list there are the result of rigorous science -- and some engineering.

so overall my point is, just because it seems like a miracle to us now doesn't mean it can't be real. as the saying goes: "any sufficiently advanced [science] is indistinguishable from magic". however, all "miracles" so far have been scientific ones, and what i'm seeing here isn't scientific.

i don't mean to discredit the whole LENR field. there are a lot of things that have been done and are being done that are pretty scientifically rigourous. and all the hand-waving dismissing that goes on i find rather un-scientific. we know we have an anomaly, or rather, now, a couple anomalies. whether they are observational or theoretical or experimental or what-have-you, remains to be established. but until a source for the anomolies can be thoroughly explained scientifically, it is still a legitimate and worthy and respectable field of scientific investigation.

None of what you posted was considered a miracle....I don't understand how you came that that misjudgement. All devices and phenomenon were not only replicated with ease repeatedly, but also did not hide behind some miraculous claim with lack of support.

[paperburn1]

Approximate Power density of the papp engine to be licensed for manufacture in 6 months.

Fuel mix in percent

xenon 8.5
krypton 12.5
argon 16.9
neon 26.3
helium 35.8

240 cc of gas mix is required per cylinder/ 480 cc per engine

fuel life 10,000 hours

power rating as tested per engine 278 hp/ 204 kilowatts

2.040.000 kilowatt hours power output

(480)(.358) = 171.84 CC amount of helium per engine.

(2.040.000 kilowatt hours) (171.84) = 11871.51 kilowatt hours/CC

I cubic foot = 28316cc

1 cubic foot of helium = 336,153,677.16 kilowatt hours/cubic foot of helium.

Fuel recycling from ash not considered.

One charge of gas will fuel a car for 144,000 miles.[/quote]


ask yourself how much energy in H3 takes about 30 tones of it a year to supply our power in the usa and this seems to be doing better than that.
Anyway what I see happening according to my observation of a video (thats a disclaimer by the way as I do not have any data to work with) is they pull a hard vacuum on both sides of a cylinder. Inject the gas mix on the one side and super heat the mixture on that side with a arc. It goes though some flash expansion then condensation cycle, piston is pushed up and pulled down and in the process it hits a gear of unknown weight that bounces up and down. How much energy is used to make the spark. looks impressive but how much work is being done. TANSTAAFL

[tomclarke]

Does axil not consider that through history, whenever miracles are being sold, the chances they are real have been very very low?

Even lower when these miracles have no substantive verification, as here.

The specifics of this claimed miracle don't budge me upward from the average.

nuclear power: miracle sold: real
quantum physics: miracle sold: real
...not let's go back a bit.

microscope: miracle sold: real
cathode ray tube: miracle sold: real
evolution: miracle sold to all industrialized countries except for the u.s.: real
heliocentrism...
electricity...
flight...

the list goes on.

As pointed out above none of these things are miracles.

More importantly no-one sold them as miracles. They made money only after they were accepted by science as real phenomena.

until a source for the anomolies can be thoroughly explained scientifically, it is still a legitimate and worthy and respectable field of scientific investigation.

Of course. It is what science does. But remember 99% of anomalies come down to misunderstanding of subtle experimental issues, and are profoundly unexciting when finally tracked down. So don't expect rational people to spend money investigating weird experimental results unless they are coherent or beyond likely experimental error.

[Axil]

Here is an interesting post from Akira Shirakawa about Rossi's new 1200C reactor.




Have a look at the following photo and the attached technical information. These come from a quite reliable inside source who was allowed to "leak" some data and information about Rossi's 1200 °C test E-Cat core currently under testing. This was originally in Italian language, any error in translation is my fault.

* * *



[The reactor] is composed of two coaxial steel cylinders. The internal space between the two cylinders contains an electrical heating resistance and the reaction chamber with the active material. The cylinder bases are sealed with heat resistant sealant for blast furnace use. Pressure sealing is not needed. The whole has been painted in black to increase emissivity and can withstand 1200 °C.

The photo shows a phase of the measurements

At the time of this photo, the average outer surface temperature was 801 °C, with local hot spots of 873 °C. The inner surface temperature ranged from 1100 °C to over 1200 °C. Two electrical heating resistances in parallel (the 4 visible cables). Value of the resistances in parallel: 6 Ohm. AC (50 Hz) input voltage of 147 Volts. Current consumption 24.25 Ampere. Power consumption 3.56 kW. Heat power irradiated by both inner and outer walls, assumed equal for a total of 13.39 kW, including the average ambient temperature of 35 °C.
Inner wall of bright white color, unapproachable under 1 meter of distance because of hot air flow. Outer wall measured by thermal camera with 2% measurement precision. Inner wall measurement by laser thermometer from a 1.2 meter distance by the shaky hand of a person who didn't want to get cooked.
Conservative, rounded down values due to heat taken off by convective flow estimated to be at least 8% on the outer wall and low irradiation cosine for the inner wall due to high irradiation angle toward laser thermometer (pointing almost in axis with the inner cylinder).
Stable reaction, without strange happenings. Virtually boring.

COP raises when 1000 °C are exceeded on the outer wall. [Fuel] consumption is that of a [nuclear] fusion reaction, that is, almost nonexistent. A proper estimate would require to turn the thing on and then taking a very long vacation before verifying the actual consumption.

For the sake of completeness, it should be noted that data are preliminary and that inner cylinder measurements will have to be remade with less shaky methods than a laser thermometer, in order to improve results as it's a delicate measurement, since the inner surface is in contact with the air heated by the surface itself.

[happyjack27]

Does axil not consider that through history, whenever miracles are being sold, the chances they are real have been very very low?

Even lower when these miracles have no substantive verification, as here.

The specifics of this claimed miracle don't budge me upward from the average.

nuclear power: miracle sold: real
quantum physics: miracle sold: real
...not let's go back a bit.

microscope: miracle sold: real
cathode ray tube: miracle sold: real
evolution: miracle sold to all industrialized countries except for the u.s.: real
heliocentrism...
electricity...
flight...

the list goes on.

having said that, keeping the methods secret is the opposite of science, and nothing that wasn't done scientifically... well, all of those things in my little list there are the result of rigorous science -- and some engineering.

so overall my point is, just because it seems like a miracle to us now doesn't mean it can't be real. as the saying goes: "any sufficiently advanced [science] is indistinguishable from magic". however, all "miracles" so far have been scientific ones, and what i'm seeing here isn't scientific.

i don't mean to discredit the whole LENR field. there are a lot of things that have been done and are being done that are pretty scientifically rigourous. and all the hand-waving dismissing that goes on i find rather un-scientific. we know we have an anomaly, or rather, now, a couple anomalies. whether they are observational or theoretical or experimental or what-have-you, remains to be established. but until a source for the anomolies can be thoroughly explained scientifically, it is still a legitimate and worthy and respectable field of scientific investigation.

None of what you posted was considered a miracle....I don't understand how you came that that misjudgement.

it's not a misjudgement at all. i think what you mean is that we are attaching subtly different meanings to the word "miracle".

but actually, no -- when i look back at what i said i see that i clearly said "SEEMS LIKE a miracle", and then later put "miracle" in scare quotes. so it is NOT that we attached subtly different meanings to the word "miracle", but simply that you did not read what i wrote carefully enough.

All devices and phenomenon were not only replicated with ease repeatedly, but also did not hide behind some miraculous claim with lack of support.

the first part of that is demonstrably false. many of the devices and phenomenen listed, and not listed, were very difficult to do even once, nonetheless repeatedly. the second part is exactly what i just said; it is my entire point. so i see we are in agreement.

[Axil]

It is no miracle. The trick is to use the electrostatic force properly in engineering the nuclear reaction.

[happyjack27]

Does axil not consider that through history, whenever miracles are being sold, the chances they are real have been very very low?

Even lower when these miracles have no substantive verification, as here.

The specifics of this claimed miracle don't budge me upward from the average.

nuclear power: miracle sold: real
quantum physics: miracle sold: real
...not let's go back a bit.

microscope: miracle sold: real
cathode ray tube: miracle sold: real
evolution: miracle sold to all industrialized countries except for the u.s.: real
heliocentrism...
electricity...
flight...

the list goes on.

As pointed out above none of these things are miracles.

More importantly no-one sold them as miracles. They made money only after they were accepted by science as real phenomena.

true.

until a source for the anomolies can be thoroughly explained scientifically, it is still a legitimate and worthy and respectable field of scientific investigation.

Of course. It is what science does. But remember 99% of anomalies come down to misunderstanding of subtle experimental issues, and are profoundly unexciting when finally tracked down. So don't expect rational people to spend money investigating weird experimental results unless they are coherent or beyond likely experimental error.

also true. i was reminded of "polywater" when writing the above. it turned out to be just a contaminant. but until it was discovered and demonstrated that that was the source of the anomaly... well, that would never have been discovered and demonstrated if people had never investigated the phenomenon empirically. so you see, the empirical investigation was good science, and led to practical results. perhaps not the most exciting results, but results that provided solid answers, nonetheless.

on that point, i _don't_ expect rational people to spend money investigating weird experimental results unless they are coherent or beyond likely experimental error. many LENR experimental results are coherent and beyond likely experimental error. and, true to your statement, rational people are spending money investigating them.

[Axil]

http://pesn.com/2012/08/10/9602157_Inte ... Power-Gen/


Inteligentry to Debut at PowerGen


The latest news from John Rohner of Inteligentry is that they are going to make their big public debut of their noble gas engine, with volumes of product ready to purchase, from manufacturers and distributors from around the world, starting December 11, 2012 at the PowerGen conference in Orlando, Florida -- one of the largest energy conferences in the world. This is a postponement of the September launch that we've been anticipating this year, but now a date has been set, and the booth space has been purchased.

[Axil]

http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/d ... 12c6ba0a8f

DGT anounces an overview of their LENR+ technology. It is based on Rydberg atoms.

[paperburn1]

http://pesn.com/2012/08/10/9602157_Inte ... Power-Gen/


Inteligentry to Debut at PowerGen


The latest news from John Rohner of Inteligentry is that they are going to make their big public debut of their noble gas engine, with volumes of product ready to purchase, from manufacturers and distributors from around the world, starting December 11, 2012 at the PowerGen conference in Orlando, Florida -- one of the largest energy conferences in the world. This is a postponement of the September launch that we've been anticipating this year, but now a date has been set, and the booth space has been purchased.

I really hope your right about this, but I still have my doubts.