10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[tomclarke]

tomclarke,

Rossi has repeatedly lied on his blog.

Oh. Where? Give us some examples. He has done better than average in fulfilling promises when he will do something.

I know you saw Ladajo's quote-A-thon of Rossi....

Anywho, so are the home ecats ready this October like previously claimed?

Rossi's comments can be parsed as "not lies" only by dividing them as follows:

(1) Statements about future events fully under Rossi's control, which turn out incorrect. This can be seen as not lying if in fact the events were changed by unforseeable circumstances. But it happens again and again, and always in the same direction. (Some 3rd party verification promised and then retracted)

(2) statements about current state of e-cat development. E.g. existence of manufacturing facilities which turn out incorrect (like the Rossi US factory). This can be seen as not lying only though some truly amazing twists of language.

(3) statements about the technical aspects of his device, or his measurements, which turn out to be demonstrably false. These can be seen as not lies if you reckon Rossi has no understanding of anything technical so his remarks are meaningless (to him) babble.

On second thoughts this classification is not enough. Rossi has made an awful lot of deceptive statements...

[GIThruster]

This is what you have to expect from the sort who would purchase a phony degree. Where is the surprise?

[happyjack27]

in another conversation, maybe. certainly not in your statement that we're talking about.

In the cases of higher claimes excess heat such as Rossi and Defcalion, the experimental setup has to be doubted. Also these have never been independently verified.

Like I said. I never disputed that statement.

[Skipjack]

Like I said. I never disputed that statement.

???
I thought that was what the discussion was about?

[Carl White]

I'm still waiting for someone to publish a clear set of instructions on how to build a working LENR device, available to everyone.

It doesn't have to be a scientific publication, just serious and clearly written.

It doesn't have to produce enormous levels of excess heat, just enough to be definitive.

It doesn't have to be practical, just reproducible.

Let an engineer try to make it simple and inexpensive, to encourage wide third-party replication, then publish it for all to see.

Someone do this. Please.

[User27182]

I'm still waiting for someone to publish a clear set of instructions on how to build a working LENR device, available to everyone.

Can you expect similar instructions to reproduce ... blue LED ? Does it mean LEDs are not possible?

[tomclarke]

I'm still waiting for someone to publish a clear set of instructions on how to build a working LENR device, available to everyone.

Can you expect similar instructions to reproduce ... blue LED ? Does it mean LEDs are not possible?

Yes, research papers exist telling you how blue leds work and how to make them.

In fact clear instructions exist for how to build LENR devices. A lot easier than blue leds. It is just that when built they do not work.

[Skipjack]

I want a "like" button for toms post

[Axil]

http://www.plasmerg.com/_files/Cert.pdf

LENR when configured in the Papp engine has been cerified to work by the state of Oklahoma.

[tomclarke]

http://www.plasmerg.com/_files/Cert.pdf

LENR when configured in the Papp engine has been cerified to work by the state of Oklahoma.

No. A garage owner and a chemist have stated that they have seen a demo which they can't fault: the statement has been certified by Oklahoma.

Reading it, I have no idea where the scam is. But I'd bet 99.99% that there is one. there are various loose ends in the account, but as always it is impossible to know whether the solution is one of these, or something completely unexpected and not mentioned at all.

[GIThruster]

Fascinating subject I've never run into before.

Worth reading to the end:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Papp

latest developments last month:

http://pappengine.com/videos.htm

I'm not saying it's other than a scam, but it appears to be a world-class scam. The fact it blew up throws a wrench into the typical scammer's method. I have no idea how the engine is supposed to work but I'll see what I can find out.

This is a 46 year old invention. I'm surprised to never have heard of it before.

[GIThruster]

I just watched the 1 hour vid here:

http://pesn.com/2012/08/03/9602151_Bob- ... TeslaTech/

and despite I am not generally sympathetic with the kinds of stuff TeslaTech is into, this looks authentic. Should have its own thread here at T-P.

I'd especially like to note that though this is similar to the situation I normally avoid, where a supposed inventor such as Searl, has no explanation for why they designed what they did, this is not the case here. Papp apparently understood what he was doing. The reason that Rohner has been stumbling around with lower efficiencies and that physicists don't know how to explain what is going on seems to be that Papp took much of his knowledge to the grave.

The single biggest issue here is that this is NOT a heat engine. That's absolutely certain from the video. This nobel gas mixture is expanding and contracting at fantastic speed that cannot be explained through a heat cycle.

I'm surprised no one mentioned use of neutron detectors around the device, etc.

Truly fascinating subject that bears further examination! Even if the nobel gas fuels are too expensive for this to be a viable alternative to things like internal combustion in most places, this is a viable solution to power needs on long robotic deeps space missions. One of these engines could provide dozens or hundreds of kilowatts for decades at a time, without enormous heat rejection panels etc. This is the kind of thing that could enable things like the JIMO mission.

Finally, I think it's important to note the eye-witness testimony here given by the man in the audience who claimed to be a Cal-Tech grad who had had Feynman as an instructor. The account this guys gives is that back when Feynman was present to examine this engine that he could not fathom how it runs (because it is not a heat engine) that Feynman was the one who unplugged part of the electrical control system, whereupon the engine ran wild and exploded killing someone in the audience. It;'s extremely important to note the consequences if this is a true accounting of the event that certainly did end in the death of an observer.

If Feynman had been responsible, then there's every reason to accept how this technology was set aside for decades. The fact Cal-Tech has scrubbed its web site of all accounting of the story is significant. There are a host of authentic details about this issue that seem to explain why this technology has not been much pursued, all centering around the unhappy accident caused by Feynman.

Curiouser and curiouser. . .

I sent Rohner a note asking of they've used a neutron detector to get more info about what sort of reaction they have, and asked whether they've sent out the used gas for analysis to see what sort of reaction products they have.

[tomclarke]

I just watched the 1 hour vid here:

http://pesn.com/2012/08/03/9602151_Bob- ... TeslaTech/

and despite I am not generally sympathetic with the kinds of stuff TeslaTech is into, this looks authentic. Should have its own thread here at T-P.

I'd especially like to note that though this is similar to the situation I normally avoid, where a supposed inventor such as Searl, has no explanation for why they designed what they did, this is not the case here. Papp apparently understood what he was doing. The reason that Rohner has been stumbling around with lower efficiencies and that physicists don't know how to explain what is going on seems to be that Papp took much of his knowledge to the grave.

The single biggest issue here is that this is NOT a heat engine. That's absolutely certain from the video. This nobel gas mixture is expanding and contracting at fantastic speed that cannot be explained through a heat cycle.

I'm surprised no one mentioned use of neutron detectors around the device, etc.

Truly fascinating subject that bears further examination! Even if the nobel gas fuels are too expensive for this to be a viable alternative to things like internal combustion in most places, this is a viable solution to power needs on long robotic deeps space missions. One of these engines could provide dozens or hundreds of kilowatts for decades at a time, without enormous heat rejection panels etc. This is the kind of thing that could enable things like the JIMO mission.

Finally, I think it's important to note the eye-witness testimony here given by the man in the audience who claimed to be a Cal-Tech grad who had had Feynman as an instructor. The account this guys gives is that back when Feynman was present to examine this engine that he could not fathom how it runs (because it is not a heat engine) that Feynman was the one who unplugged part of the electrical control system, whereupon the engine ran wild and exploded killing someone in the audience. It;'s extremely important to note the consequences if this is a true accounting of the event that certainly did end in the death of an observer.

If Feynman had been responsible, then there's every reason to accept how this technology was set aside for decades. The fact Cal-Tech has scrubbed its web site of all accounting of the story is significant. There are a host of authentic details about this issue that seem to explain why this technology has not been much pursued, all centering around the unhappy accident caused by Feynman.

Curiouser and curiouser. . .

I sent Rohner a note asking of they've used a neutron detector to get more info about what sort of reaction they have, and asked whether they've sent out the used gas for analysis to see what sort of reaction products they have.

Too many red flags here. And most crackpot inventors claim they understand how their inventions work - that does not make things any more likely.

This one looks strongly like a scam, and I would revise that only after very detailed examination of setup by physicist and magician.

[tomclarke]

You might want to note the following context. A very mirky history to this "invention".

http://www.rohnerengineering.com/

http://beforeitsnews.com/energy/2011/06 ... 92645.html

And Papp:
Clearly prolific, he also claims to have designed & built the world's fastest submarine, but took the secret to his grave:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Papp

[GIThruster]

"Muddy" is a good word for it.

I tried several times to read the entire rambling mess that this guy posted and to be honest, much of it does not make sense. It is apparently written by one of the brothers of Bob and the late Tom Rohner, just days after Tom's death. Many of the claims are incomprehensible and some are obviously wrong. People are not guilty of fraud for failing to tell family what their business practices are. This unnamed brother likely has some legitimate gripes buy he's amplifying them in order to justify making them public. Looks like the unnamed writer is emotionally disturbed, perhaps from the recent passing if his sibling. I would note that blaming lack of contact with a sibling on another sibling, is not what one would call rational nor adult behavior.

Looks like a mess and specifically the kind of mess that surfaces when large sums of money are involved, such as with inheritances and such. I don't see though how it relates to the veracity of the invention save perhaps that there may be some contention over who owns the IP. The fact Rohner has designed and built their own engines, and that the principle behind their operation is not included in the patent (as a general method patent) would indicate Rohner is free to continue to develop their own IP, despite the complaining of a sibling.

Note that your second link immediately above concerns the work of a Dr. John Rohner at PlasMerg, likely the writer of the stuff at the link above it which would be in competition with the work at Papp/Rohner. It looks like the Dr. John Rohner is the fraud.