10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Aero wrote:
kunkmiester wrote: http://technologygateway.nasa.gov/media ... /lenr.html

Any thoughts on this?
Yes. This is not the place for a serious post. This thread is all about beating up on Rossi so you should create a new thread and ask your question anew.
I saw that clip. I was not impressed.
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Post by MSimon »

Looks like we hit

200
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Enginerd
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Post by Enginerd »

MSimon wrote:Looks like we hit

200
And that is 200 pages on the new thread... The old thread
on the subject made it to 246 pages, before the new thread
took over....

Image
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
--Philip K. Dick

CaptainBeowulf
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Post by CaptainBeowulf »

Talk-Polywell frequently makes me want to post that cartoon. :P

parallel
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Post by parallel »

Live interview with Rossi at 5pm EST today.
http://www.justin.tv/smartscarecrow#/w/2434889984
Viewers can ask questions too.

One page summary for non-tech readers here, from the DelcoTimes. So the press is starting to notice.
http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2012 ... 410177.txt

stefanbanev
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Post by stefanbanev »

tomclarke wrote:
cgray45 wrote:
tomclarke wrote:
Always pointing us to 3000 papers etc is not helpful, and does not prove your point.
Or to be blunt, explain why Rossi can't seem to even handle pre-graduate level work in terms of being able to devise a method to accurately measure his energy production.

These are not minor issues-- saying you're generating about 1MW or even 500+KW when the heat output looks more liek what I get from my teakettle pretty much throws you out of the "we should take you seriously" area.

Rossi is a fraud, or delusional, and he is doing the LENR community no favors, because it is already seen in a dubious light by mainstream scientists and this makes it worse.

We're not even talking about science here-- we're talking about someone who is taking the classical scammer route or playing up his invention while doing everything he can to avoid having it tested-- he talks about Bologna, or NASA and then we find it that HE was the one who after the headlines died, changed the terms to keep NASA from testing it, and then hasn't paid the U of B their fee so they won't test it.
It has been clear from the start that Rossi is a joker: and consistently so. What stripe of joker (scammer, idiot who believes his own inconsistency) who can tell. But he does not have much understanding of science or would be less obviously inconsistent.

That said, the interesting thing is why so many folks get excited about his claims. I think this is largely because he is personally (others have claimed) very convincing, certainly appears honest, and has been clever in getting some technical people on his side. There will always be enough of technical people willing to suspend critical judgement (or maybe who never exercise critical judgement) when presented with promises of miracles.

That of course is the problem with LENR. It promises miracles, and so those interested in it will often be seekers after miracles. Not always the best scientists. Not helped by a few Nobel prize winners in different fields also attracted by miracles. (Rather like famous physicists turning highly and weirdly mystical in their retirement, a common phenomenon).
tomclarke>"It has been clear from the start that Rossi is a joker"

Well, it does not matter what the subjective impression he has made for some people. The result is the only what accounts. At the end he may achieve what people considering themself a way superior have failed to achieve. Rossi was smart enough to recognize the importance of accidental findings he has stumbled upon, smart enough to involve people with so far positive net contribution, he gets courage to risk his fortune, he copes with his weak sides relatively well and even exploits it for his advantage in some cases, bottom line he acts in noisy-circumstantial word quite adequately. I really wish him success (still slim), besides it will keep smart asses employed, the demand for good engineering will increase dramatically if LENR is for real.

D Tibbets
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Post by D Tibbets »

MSimon wrote:
Aero wrote:
kunkmiester wrote: http://technologygateway.nasa.gov/media ... /lenr.html

Any thoughts on this?
Yes. This is not the place for a serious post. This thread is all about beating up on Rossi so you should create a new thread and ask your question anew.
I saw that clip. I was not impressed.
Neither was I. It is a fluff piece without merit. I don't know the credentials of the person, or if conditional statements (like ' If this idea works, then...) were edited out.

And, I do not think any new physics is needed to get excess energy from adding neutrons to select isotopes. The obvious problem is that the cost of obtaining neutrons is completely ignored. Free neutrons do not persist in nature for more than a few seconds (unless you live on a neutron star). You have to produce the free neutrons. And this consumes energy most of the time. I could see some marginal improvements in energy output if you harvested unneeded neutrons from a uranium plant, bombarded select isotopes and then harvested the energy from subsequent decay. This is similar to the energy that is derived from the chain of decays that happen after the initial fission of U235. But, this is different from an independent power plant utilizing only this mechanism. It would mostly resemble the radioisotope thermal batteries that are utlilzed in some space craft. The relatively short half life isotope is harvested from nuclear fission plants. (eg:Pu240). Utilizing the heat from spent fuel rods is also similar. But the energy density is to low to be economical- that is why they just allow them to cool, without attempting to harvest the Waste heat.

And as I have argued, adding nucleons (protons or neutrons) to nuclei heavier than Ni62 increases the potential energy of the nucleus (becomes more positive). If this new nucleus then decays, it will release energy (that is why it decays- the nucleus becomes more stable, thus lower retained potential energy). But the net released energy may not reach the magnitude of the energy you put into the system (ie: the energy needed to produce the free neutron).

An example of a very attractive reaction (no free neutrons involved) is the decay of an excited isomer of Be8. It releases two alpha particles. The problem is that it has a very short half life. You are not going to find it in nature. You have to produce it. It so happens that this is a intermediate step in the P-B11 fusion reaction, and it indeed produces net positive free energy, and the initial ingredients are readily available (this is a major point- you mine for the ingredients, you do not create them). The problem with this reaction is the cost and difficulty of making the reaction proceed at rates fast enough to be useful, and with required limits on input energy to drive the reaction (in part to the Be8* intermediate stage).

Cold fusion, etc suggests that the input energy can be much less in special circumstances. That is a formidable challenge in and of itself. That the results of the subsequent claimed reactions are completely different than classical nuclear reaction chains is an additional complication. You are not only eliminating the Coulomb barrier but also the reaction products. Despite this you are not necessarily altering the thermodynamics of the system- you are fusing light elements, or you are fissioning heavier elements/ isotopes/ isomers towards the endpoint of Nickel62. Rossi's E-cat adds this third improbability (I think impossibility) as he seems to claim that he is getting excess energy by moving away from Ni62.

And yes Be8* to 2 alphas is moving away from Ni62, but energy accounting explains this. The intermediate steps are unimportant to the energy balance, it is the starting and end products and their relative potential energies that determines the net energy balance result (just like in Chemistry) Alpha particles (He4) has an unusually low nuclear potential energy, so as the end product it is special. The intermediates may play a major role in the rate/ probability of a reaction proceeding, but not the final energy balance.

Dan Tibbets
Last edited by D Tibbets on Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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parallel
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Post by parallel »

tomclarke
It has been clear from the start that Rossi is a joker: and consistently so. What stripe of joker (scammer, idiot who believes his own inconsistency) who can tell. But he does not have much understanding of science or would be less obviously inconsistent.
How will you apologize for your many insults should the E-Cat turn out to be real?

Just as well the world is not made up of only pathological skeptics like you or there would be few new developments. You could apply for a position with the DoE: you would fit right in.

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Post by MSimon »

How will you apologize for your many insults should the E-Cat turn out to be real?
Well. Dang. I got that one wrong.

BTW I'm still waiting for EEStor to be proven imaginary. Which is to say we will probably never know if Rossi fails. He will just fade away.
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Post by MSimon »

if LENR is for real.
That is the real trick isn't it? And after 20+ years we still don't have the answer to that one.

And no one seems to bellying up to the bar. The error bar.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

parallel
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Post by parallel »

MSimon,
I don't think that would quite hack it.
Remember what you promised me, many moons ago, should you be wrong?

With a mistake as huge as that, the huge, expensive, slow, dumb DoE should be closed down as an example.

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Post by MSimon »

parallel wrote:MSimon,
I don't think that would quite hack it.
Remember what you promised me, many moons ago, should you be wrong?

With a mistake as huge as that, the huge, expensive, slow, dumb DoE should be closed down as an example.
DOE should be closed down anyway.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

MSimon wrote:
parallel wrote:MSimon,
I don't think that would quite hack it.
Remember what you promised me, many moons ago, should you be wrong?

With a mistake as huge as that, the huge, expensive, slow, dumb DoE should be closed down as an example.
DOE should be closed down anyway.
And yeah. I remember. And I will. I'm still awaiting evidence of my error. Got any? With error bars?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

tomclarke
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Post by tomclarke »

parallel wrote:tomclarke
It has been clear from the start that Rossi is a joker: and consistently so. What stripe of joker (scammer, idiot who believes his own inconsistency) who can tell. But he does not have much understanding of science or would be less obviously inconsistent.
How will you apologize for your many insults should the E-Cat turn out to be real?

Just as well the world is not made up of only pathological skeptics like you or there would be few new developments. You could apply for a position with the DoE: you would fit right in.
I won't apologise for the insults, because they are the inevitable result of Rossi's behaviour.

But I reckon the chances of his having anything are very small (being right is of course no longer open to him when he has contradicted himself so often).

parallel
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Post by parallel »

tomclarke wrote:
parallel wrote:tomclarke
It has been clear from the start that Rossi is a joker: and consistently so. What stripe of joker (scammer, idiot who believes his own inconsistency) who can tell. But he does not have much understanding of science or would be less obviously inconsistent.
How will you apologize for your many insults should the E-Cat turn out to be real?

Just as well the world is not made up of only pathological skeptics like you or there would be few new developments. You could apply for a position with the DoE: you would fit right in.
I won't apologise for the insults, because they are the inevitable result of Rossi's behaviour.

But I reckon the chances of his having anything are very small (being right is of course no longer open to him when he has contradicted himself so often).
Oh. Just what specific behavior has given you license to make your libelous remarks?
That he won't tell people how his secret process works?

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