10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

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Carl White
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10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Postby Carl White » Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:24 am

Split off from the original thread, where chrismb and Joseph Chivka are now locked in mortal combat.

Can we keep this thread to news (i.e. links to articles) and civil discussion only please?

rcain
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Postby rcain » Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:03 am

Carl White wrote:..
Can we keep this thread to news (i.e. links to articles) and civil discussion only please?


given the topic, i find that highly unlikely.

Giorgio
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Postby Giorgio » Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:58 am

Agree.

Aero
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Postby Aero » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:17 pm

But let's try. So far, after 240 pages, the general consensus is that:
It might work,
It won't work,
It's nuclear,
it's something else,
Maybe someone who has been able to follow the technical details will favor us with a more precise summary of the general consensus.
Aero

Betruger
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Postby Betruger » Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:06 pm

I haven't had the patience to keep up. Is this fall/winter still the agreed time when we'll be able to look inside Rossi's black box?

WizWom
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Postby WizWom » Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:09 pm

From what I've explored, the key seems to be saturation of the area with neutrinos from beta decay, allowing the temporary conversion of protons to neutrons, long enough to impact nuclei before decaying.

It is debatable whether this is feasible; the lifetime of these neutrinos in the material would be quite short, given the size of the device. But, if it worked, the reaction would be something along these lines:

1 H + anti-ν + e- -> n*
62 Ni + n* -> 63 Ni*
63 Ni -> 63 Cu + β- + anti-ν

Needless to say, the reaction requires a high density of Hydrogen in close proximity to the Nickel, or the anti-neutrino will escape.

The lifetime of the n* would be quite short, but inside the Nickel metal, the maximum distance will be (√2)/2 the 124pm atomic radius, so even a fairly low temperature should allow the neutron to travel to a nucleus in time.
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KitemanSA
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Postby KitemanSA » Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:13 pm

WizWom wrote:From what I've explored, the key seems to be saturation of the area with neutrinos from beta decay, allowing the temporary conversion of protons to neutrons, long enough to impact nuclei before decaying.

It is debatable whether this is feasible; the lifetime of these neutrinos in the material would be quite short, given the size of the device. But, if it worked, the reaction would be something along these lines:

1 H + anti-ν + e- -> n*
62 Ni + n* -> 63 Ni*
63 Ni -> 63 Cu + β- + anti-ν

Needless to say, the reaction requires a high density of Hydrogen in close proximity to the Nickel, or the anti-neutrino will escape.

The lifetime of the n* would be quite short, but inside the Nickel metal, the maximum distance will be (√2)/2 the 124pm atomic radius, so even a fairly low temperature should allow the neutron to travel to a nucleus in time.
You describe the Widom Larsen hypothesis but Rossi says that WL does NOT apply to his machine.

Oh well!

WizWom
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Postby WizWom » Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:37 pm

I'm of the opinion that Rossi is an empiricist, who doesn't really grasp quantum mechanics.
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KitemanSA
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Postby KitemanSA » Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:52 pm

WizWom wrote:I'm of the opinion that Rossi is an empiricist, who doesn't really grasp quantum mechanics.
Can't argue that, but neutron reactions typically result in unstable isotopes of medium duration which should be obvious in the results. Perhaps they don't kow exactly HOW it works but that it works more like proton reactions than neutron. The question then would become... if it works, how is the coulomb barrier overcome in these low energy lattice regimes? BECs? Polaritons? Mini-atoms? Something else? (or perhaps it doesn't work after all!)

Enginerd
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Postby Enginerd » Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:29 pm

KitemanSA wrote:The question then would become... if it works, how is the coulomb barrier overcome in these low energy lattice regimes? BECs? Polaritons? Mini-atoms? Something else? (or perhaps it doesn't work after all!)


Free Nobel prize for the first person to prove such LENR reactions really exist and can provide a solid explanation for why and how such reactions take place...

KitemanSA
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Postby KitemanSA » Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:32 pm

Enginerd wrote: Free Nobel prize for the first person to prove such LENR reactions really exist and can provide a solid explanation for why and how such reactions take place...
I suspect you are correct! ;)

dch24
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Postby dch24 » Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:23 pm

I don't believe this is the right site if you want a thread to stay on topic.

Since Rossi has not demonstrated to outside observers the extraordinary proof that is necessary, his extraordinary claims are just claims.

As are 99% of the posts here. I liked the video of the tea kettle testing steam pressure through a hose.

Torulf2
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Postby Torulf2 » Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:37 pm

I think most of the theory's about this sounds odd and unbelievable.
Butt now I can se a fantastic possibility.
before I go to believe it I will test in my kitchen.

Ivy Matt
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Postby Ivy Matt » Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:45 pm

Betruger wrote:I haven't had the patience to keep up. Is this fall/winter still the agreed time when we'll be able to look inside Rossi's black box?

There's no agreed time for that that I know of. The last week of October is when Rossi is supposed to demonstrate his 1 MW reactor. The end of this year or the beginning of the next is when the customers of Defkalion Green Technologies are supposed to find out if the units actually work as advertised. Figuring out what's inside the black box will presumably take a bit longer.
Temperature, density, confinement time: pick any two.

Carl White
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Postby Carl White » Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:56 am

Betruger wrote:I haven't had the patience to keep up. Is this fall/winter still the agreed time when we'll be able to look inside Rossi's black box?


From Defkalion's responses on its forum:

- The agenda of the 1 MW presentation will be announced through their website by mid-October.

- Defkalion has had units (which they call Hyperions) in continuous operation for months. When their testing is finished, the results will be published.

- Testing of Hyperion units by Greek government officials took place the first ten days of July. These tests were to determine the safety and performance of the units. The protocols used and the results of these tests should be published, "very soon."

- Defkalion has tested self sustaining systems. In these systems, once the device is brought up to the proper temperature, the input is cut off and heat continues to be produced.

- At this moment, the highest temperature of steam produced by a Hyperion is 414C. This is not because steam cannot be made hotter, but because higher temperatures can exceed the specifications of components.

- They have never performed a test in which the output of a Hyperion was less than 19 times the input. Usually, it is in the range of 20 to 30 times the input.

Source: http://pesn.com/2011/07/14/9501868_E-Ca ... d_furious/


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