10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

Moderators: tonybarry, MSimon

Joseph Chikva
Posts: 2039
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:30 am

Post by Joseph Chikva »

parallel wrote:Oh. Just what specific behavior has given you license to make your libelous remarks?
I would not call these words
But he does not have much understanding of science or would be less obviously inconsistent.
"insult". Rossi showed lack of elementary skill in calorimetry. And that is not even "understanding of science". Because as I know nobody call in English "scientists" the people graduated only by medium school. And once again: only medium school level skill in physics would be enough for proper calorimetry.

tomclarke
Posts: 1683
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:52 pm
Location: London
Contact:

Post by tomclarke »

parallel wrote:
tomclarke wrote:
parallel wrote:tomclarke How will you apologize for your many insults should the E-Cat turn out to be real?

Just as well the world is not made up of only pathological skeptics like you or there would be few new developments. You could apply for a position with the DoE: you would fit right in.
I won't apologise for the insults, because they are the inevitable result of Rossi's behaviour.

But I reckon the chances of his having anything are very small (being right is of course no longer open to him when he has contradicted himself so often).
Oh. Just what specific behavior has given you license to make your libelous remarks?
That he won't tell people how his secret process works?
Sorry parallel - libel needs to be untrue. What have I said untrue about Rossi?

stefanbanev
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:12 am

Post by stefanbanev »

parallel wrote:
tomclarke wrote:
parallel wrote:tomclarke How will you apologize for your many insults should the E-Cat turn out to be real?

Just as well the world is not made up of only pathological skeptics like you or there would be few new developments. You could apply for a position with the DoE: you would fit right in.
I won't apologise for the insults, because they are the inevitable result of Rossi's behaviour.

But I reckon the chances of his having anything are very small (being right is of course no longer open to him when he has contradicted himself so often).
Oh. Just what specific behavior has given you license to make your libelous remarks?
That he won't tell people how his secret process works?
It's quite apparent why Rossi irritates people like TC; yet, there is a bright side in their arrogance - their arrogance is Rossi's money or at least it gives a slim chance. Just imagine if 20 years ago academicians did pay less bias attention to P&F finding then "Rossi" would not get into existence...

CKay
Posts: 282
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:13 am

Post by CKay »

stefanbanev wrote:It's quite apparent why Rossi irritates people like TC
Rossi doesn't 'irritate' me. *shrug*

OTOH, the gullibility/willing-belief of so many, despite any credible evidence for the viability of the ecats and plenty of circumstantial evidence pointing towards fraud, is quite depressing.

Kahuna
Posts: 300
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:17 pm
Location: CA

Post by Kahuna »

Rossi gave a lengthy interview on SmartScarecrow Show yesterday recorded here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP5cG-36Bag

Summary (per Aussie Guy on Vortex):
10 kW home E-Cat is the size of a portable computer.
Rossi calls the recharges "Energy Sticks", fits with the ball point pen refill statement.
Replacement is simple and can be done by anyone.
No H2 canisters used. Reactor stores and recycles the H2. Only uses picograms of H2.
Reactor control is via regulation of operational heat point.
Fuel lasts 4,320 operational hours (180 days at 24 hours a day).
E-Cat will signal when refill is needed.
Customer can purchase several refills and keep them in stock.
Cost of the refill to the customer will be $10 plus installation if needed.
Will be available via internet sales.
Home units will run in self sustain mode.
512 keV 180 deg Gammas have been detected.
1st 1 MW plant is in modification. Should be operation in 1 - 2 months.
12 additional 1 MW plants are being built.
1 additional 1 MW plant has been sold to another customer.
UL certification of the home E-Cat is in process.
2.7 to 2.9 kWs needed for 1 hour to start the home 10 kW E-Cat.
Home E-Cat has only 1 reactor.
Rossi claims the RFG helps the Coulomb barrier work with the reaction and not against it.
First E-Cat factory is in Florida. Rossi is going to Massachusetts to further discuss building another E-Cat plant there.
Home E-Cat production will start in the US fall. Sales will start in the US winter.
Rossi is not interested in family investors as the business is still risky.
Large hedge funds are welcome but only with a small % investment.
Does plan to go public.
Home E-Cat has a 30 year expected life.
Customer price between $400 to $500 for a home E-Cat 10 kW thermal unit.

Betruger
Posts: 2321
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 11:54 am

Post by Betruger »

So much talk and so little walk.

ladajo
Posts: 6258
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast

Post by ladajo »

512 keV 180 deg Gammas have been detected.
???

Am
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 5:21 pm

More comprehensive report

Post by Am »

  • 2007/2008 started getting LENR reactions. Sold other businesses. Asked Prof Focardi through Uni Bologna to answer why his system/idea could not work. Bad news,Focardi saw no reason. Professor Focardi helped with radiation and safety.
  • Intention to produce energy useful for industrial applications
  • Distinction between industrial and domestic units.
  • Size about box of cigarretes. Powdered Ni and compressed H and catalyzer
  • Low energy Gamma heats lead andlead  heats water outside reactor
  • For 1MW with ‘thin’ amount of H and Ni… Theory soon… Understood well.
  • No gas (exhaust) waste radiation etc – clean. No danger of meltdown – no radioactive materials
  • Should temp be too high Ni melts and stops working switches off
  • 1st gen ecat heated facility for two tears but that facility now sold.
  • However ecats at present working continuously in tests.
  • Only heat – 1 to 2 years for electricity
  • 1 gm of matter (Ni or anything) 23,000 MWH of heat energy – if all global energy is eCat, still only 1% world production of Ni
  • Few public tests in past but make tests every day in production
  • Started UL tests
  • Prepping robotised factory for 1 million cats in US – love US – First factory in Florida. Now important to push price down. Want $500 tag. Hence robots and well-designed manufacturing lines
  • Will soon have lots of competitors.Trying to head off future reverse engineering by countries not respecting rights. Foresee China or other countries will do this – can’t compete on price – have to fight them with improving tech. You will be surprised at the high level of easyness for the eCat systems.
  • Study Solyndra and other companies to anticipate war (it is a war). We want to win.
  • Without catalyst it does no work. Many attempts in past did not work without catalyst. Once millions out there, simple for any lab to know and copy hence low price and engineering strategy
  • RFG – confidential but like oriental martail arts – forces that should fight against us (coloumb) used to help instead. Effect turn theoretical disadvantage to advantage
  • NI – helped enhance stability. This is useful in future to get electricity. Need 400 deg (Celcius) at least. Unstable reactor at that temperature. Currently up to 120 celcius stable. Now no power spikes. In theory, can put in series to get high temp but then unstable. Tremendous help from 1MW customer and NI (NI philosophy is to teach how to fish – this from NI first meeting when company man said they want to improve the technology together)
  • UL – exactly as it will be as sold. Has been assembled to instructions given by UL engineer
  • Many people complain we don’t go to conferences and tests but need to work. Have fast roadmap. No time to lose. NI is very fast in everything.
  • Looks like a small portable computer. Apply it to any existing heater. Like software that you can insert into any kind of computer. Any installer can insert it into any type of heater anywhere in the world easily.
  • Cannot get heat on demand. Response time too slow. For sanitory water (shower or hand washing) use normal system but to heat a resevoir tank or for warming home in winter the eCat is good.
  • Still looking at preheating water for commercial power plant elec generation. Problem with authorisation. Any changes to their system requires complex authorisations. Tech wise it is easy but administratively difficult.
    180 operational days. Use eCat for 1 month per year and will last 6 years. Put on for half hour and switch off and it effectively uses nothing.
  • Assistance point close to customer. They will supply refill. Customer can change or call in plumber. Very easy – old cartridge sent back for recycling.
  • Retreat Ni in the old cartridge to become new and then put back in operation. A cycle of cartridges in exisence.
  • Because it can be fitted to any type of heater you can go to your normal supplier (hence supplier will always be close to you)
  • Next week will be in Boston to talk about another possible manufacturing plant
  • Hydrogen cannister? Big surprise. Very likely will work without seperate Hydrogen cannister. Resolved problem by putting a substance inside reactor to produce and recycle Hydrogen. Picograms of H used. Originally, getting certification was big issue. Without H cannister, this is no problem.
  • Instead of using pressure of H as control, now solved problem by using heat.
  • $10 per recharge
  • Automation gets price low. Everything automised to max level. Cut time and cost of assembling.
  • Organising network with licencing agencies and sell directly on Net. Also asking customer to put in touch with installer to build network close to customers.
  • eCat will go self-sustain when system decides it can. All automatic. Like elec car control system that decides if petrol or battery power at any instant.
  • Invisibleto and not the choice of owner. Once in self-sustain mode, small input for control and any fan etc
  • Gamma radiation. Transmutation Ni to Cu is side effect. Evidence of 511 kEV gamma at 180 deg electron positron (antimatter) production. [This is interesting].
  • 1MW in modification with NI – new control system now in operation. Customer happy at test with condition that gaskets are sorted etc. Will be in operation in 1 month max in the field of customer
  • Other 12 systems underway
  • Bound by NDA can’t talk about customer
  • Another 1MW sold. Plus many, many in discussion
  • The Colonel has big experience in power plant and thermodynamics helping us get electric generation sooner than expected
  • Start up energy – every 10kW 2.7 (to 2.9kW) power input for activation.
  • This takes around one hour in domestic eCat.
  • Only one reactor in Home unit
  • Patent in Italy – took two years
  • Int and US still pending. Can’t know when and what will happen regarding patents. ~Does not depend on them. Patent attorneys working on it.
    On giving tech to world (open source). Not the best way. If you take all incentives away from investors will be no investments. If want to make something beautiful for mankind, this way is efficient. Giving away would be worst way. Open source and copying becomes worthless if the eCat has best tech and very cheap.
  • Testing U of Bol and Upsalla. Working on it. Very close to be started. Tremendous amount of work to do recently in small amount of time. Need time to work on it. Should be by February.
  • Never comment on competitors (BL Power etc)
  • No more public tests. Everything goes into preparing for mass production and working on technology
  • Once small eCats on sale, everybody can buy one and make any test they want.
  • Start production in Fall. Will have ready all engineering to start production. Sales in winter. Now ’till fall, prepping factory
  • 1 Million units per year
  • 3 to 5 years – depends on market – difficult to predict production rate
  • Investing? What rate will you consider? This is a hypothetical question. When producing 1 million pieces, they will be a warship. Not want to put at risk family savings. Enterprise still risky for many reasons. Can accept investments from big organisations (amounts that are small for them). Hedge funds etc: anything goes wrong, no one will cry. Too early for people to invest in our business. Not consolidated enough for that risk. When well consolidated, will go public.
  • Thousands of supporters who want to assist. Any way for them to help?
  • Working hard to make low price so it will pay back itself quickly then 30 years saving on fuel. Good way to help is to preregister interest in buying
  • 10kW plant. No money but offer later 400-500.

Am
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 5:21 pm

Report from the World Sustainable Energy Conference 2012 in

Post by Am »

Report from the World Sustainable Energy Conference 2012 in Geneva, 10-12 Jan 2012

Thanks to the invitation of conference chairman Gustav Grob, Francesco Celani and I, representing the International Society for Condensed Matter Nuclear Science, had the opportunity to introduce the state of research in the field, recent developments regarding Rossi/Defkalion, and offer a glimpse into a possible future where energy is provided by Cold Fusion.

Francesco told how he and his group tried to disprove CF in 1989, found neutrons, decided to spend some time to see what is happening, and over time became convinced that it's neither fraud nor error, instead something difficult but quite solid. After a very turbulent beginning with poor reproducibility of experiments, the field had by now improved the quality and reproducibility of the results obtained and the most innovative experiments were cross-checked by other groups. He criticized that a confirmation of energy production by NASA in 1989 was not immediately made public, because publication could have helped the feld gain support and funding.

The occurence of transmutations was reported and work by Iwamura's group at Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, which has developed a method for the controlled transmutation of elements, was stressed. But the presentation was focussed on energy production.

A history of excess heat production and breakthroughs was given. Two different systems have been studied extensively: the Palladium/Deuterium system, pioneered by Fleischmann/Pons, and the Nickel/Hydrogen system, pioneered by Francesco Piantelli. Both systems have been shown to have potentially large power densities. In designing a working reactor, the materials issue is central. The biggest breakthroughs, according to Francesco, were the use of nano-particles and alloys, both pioneered by Yoshiaki Arata. Excess heat production using a ZrO2-Pd alloy (Arata) was independently reproduced by Akito Takahashi/Akira Kitamura, even though the latter used material from a different, industrial provider. This is remarkable because in CF not all materials behave similarly, not even from the same producer.

Recent important results include the finding by NASA that heat was produced not just when Deuterium was loaded into Palladium, which is expected, but also when it was unloaded. Takahashi/Kitamura found a temperature dependency of excess heat prouction using Cu-Ni-Zr alloy. Francesco reported own work in progress that excess heat production in a thin, micro-nano coated Cu-Ni wire was positively correlated with a slight decrease in electrical resistance at room temperature but with a strong decrease at higher temperatures (300-500°C). All in all, experiments using nano-sized materials are highly reproducible. Operation in the gas phase enables higher temperatures which further improves reproducibility.

The facts that no greenhouse gases are produced, dangerous radiation or residual radioativity can very likely be completely eliminated, and energy sources are small, are good preconditions for commercial products. Recent, extraordinary claims by Andrea Rossi and Defkalion Green Technologies, who claim to produce energy in the kW-MW range, had to be regarded with both attention and caution. The field was not considering the Rossi/Defkalion claims to be impossible in principle, but they should be verified independently as soon as possible.

Apart from the Rossi/Defkalion claims, the quality of experiments worldwide was so high and the results obtained so widespread, that an international program, well funded and based on a multidisciplinary approach, had the possibility to build a device producing even electricity with very low, overall, emissions.

I gave an overview of claims by Rossi/Defkalion. Rossi has publically demonstrated a plant generating 1MW heat power and claims to have already sold 14 devices to a military customer and another one to a non-military customer. Within 2012 or 2013 he wants to put one million 10-20kW devices on the market to be able to push the price below 1ct/kWh. As a matter of fact, National Instruments, a company also providing control systems to tokamak Hot Fusion systems, is cooperating with Rossi's US company. The Greek company Defkalion wants to put reactors producing 5-45kW thermal power on the market, starting with the Greek market probably in 2012. Rossi/Defkalion claim to receive safety certificates within 2012. No party has an international patent, Rossi has protection in Italy.

According to a trusted source of Jed Rothwell, Defkalion's science, engineering, and equipment are first rate and the upcoming products revolutionary. I concluded that, even though there was no indication of fraud, neither Rossi nor Defkalion had lent their devices for independent testing and that there was no certainty that their devices work as claimed, including long term reliability.

If Cold Fusion devices can be turned on and off with the push of a button and work reliably over a long term, they would quickly replace existing heat and electricity sources. Relying on prospects by Rothwell and Arthur C. Clarke, I said that oil and gas used for heating and cooling would be quickly replaced by CF. Much of the energy currently consumed as electricity in water heaters, clothes washer and dryers, and dishwasher, would be supplied directly as heat from CF. A 10kW Cold Fusion heat generator should be sufficient, even for a large house. CF would be an ideal energy source for facility management. A new era of steam engines may be looming on the horizons, with obvious applications like locomotives. Even if CF turned out to be „only“ 10% of the world's energy supply, it would be important.

Desalination, the removal of salt from sea water to be used in e.g. agriculture, was an obvious application that could be realized early on. Since it has been shown by Iwamura and others that radioactive elements can be transmuted into stable elements, remediation of nuclear waste is another potential application in the also not too distant future. Because of this potential, some people in the field believe that CF will cause the return of fission power plants. But others, like Rothwell, argue that centralized power production will not be able to compete with home devices on the market.

Because of demands for plastics the oil industry would probably have a future until industry is completely turned upside down by the controlled synthesis of desired elements, which Clarke envisions for 2040. Finally, NASA sees CF applications in space travel and for the military.

To see if these prospects are realistic, a coherent explanation of the nuclear process was required for mainstream science to take notice. Science policy should be informed about the state of research and fund this kind of research to speed up research and development.

Other presentations on the conference dealt with the state of research on other energy sources, the work of NGOs, or the energy strategies of governments. Within the next days recommendations will be worked out to be submitted to the UN's Rio+20 conference held in June 2012 in Rio de Janeiro.

Haiko Lietz, 15 Jan 2012

http://www.uniseo.org/documents/WSECagenda2.pdf
http://www.iscmns.org/

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

parallel wrote:
tomclarke wrote:
parallel wrote:tomclarke How will you apologize for your many insults should the E-Cat turn out to be real?

Just as well the world is not made up of only pathological skeptics like you or there would be few new developments. You could apply for a position with the DoE: you would fit right in.
I won't apologise for the insults, because they are the inevitable result of Rossi's behaviour.

But I reckon the chances of his having anything are very small (being right is of course no longer open to him when he has contradicted himself so often).
Oh. Just what specific behavior has given you license to make your libelous remarks?
That he won't tell people how his secret process works?
To be libelous they must be knowingly false. At least in the USA truth is a defense. So far Tom has stuck even closer to the truth than I do.

Rossi has brought it on himself. But of course his reputation for dishonesty precedes him and he has done nothing to dispel it. Kinda makes you wonder.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

10 kW home E-Cat is the size of a portable computer.
Would that be the size of a lap top? Or more like the size of a tactical computer used on Navy ships.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Betruger
Posts: 2321
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 11:54 am

Post by Betruger »

10 kW home E-Cat is the size
What volume for 10kW of vapor?

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

If Cold Fusion...
And then comes the science fiction.

BTW I'm still waiting for the list of 3 top papers that provide conclusive evidence of CF with error bars.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

stefanbanev
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:12 am

Post by stefanbanev »

CKay wrote:
stefanbanev wrote:It's quite apparent why Rossi irritates people like TC
Rossi doesn't 'irritate' me. *shrug*

OTOH, the gullibility/willing-belief of so many, despite any credible evidence for the viability of the ecats and plenty of circumstantial evidence pointing towards fraud, is quite depressing.
Well, apparently, at least some emotional response you exhibit. What is credible for you may not be credible for others and vice verse; in fact, from my perspective the opposite would be quite depressing... Anyway, quite soon we will see how it unravels, if you are not in the investment business you should not worry at all...

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

Oh. Just what specific behavior has given you license to make your libelous remarks?
That he won't tell people how his secret process works?
Au contraire. He has given about 30 incomplete alternative explanations. Each incommensurate with the others and what we think we already know (physics, chemistry, math, metallurgy, engineering - etc.).

Secrecy is not one of Rossi's major problems.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Post Reply