10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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Kahuna
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Post by Kahuna »

tomclarke wrote:How do we know what the NDA stops people from publishing?
Tom
Well we know it does not stop them from publishing their take on the test results. That is in the test guidelines and if the NDA contradicted that, someone would have screamed about it by now.

DS is starting to appear to be a bit disingenuous about now. In fact he appears to be doing what he predicted DGT would do. From what I understand, he has been a fair and upstanding guy in the past. Perhaps he will do a turnaround.

It is obvious that both he and DGT are in this mostly for the PR. They may both have assumed from the outset that they other would never pull the trigger.

ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

Maybe Smith will post the NDA he encountered. We do not know what it says.

I agree that his testing with DGT seems redundant given that they are "pressing on" with the seven. However, I also noticed that this seesm to be the first time that DGT has mentioned any NDA's regarding the testing. As I recall they went into it saying it would all be above table, and the only controlled bit would be the "black box".

Confusing to some degree.

In any event, I agree that Smith came off a bit abrasive in his exchange with DGT. We shall see.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

stefanbanev
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Post by stefanbanev »

tomclarke wrote:
stefanbanev wrote:
parallel wrote:Dick Smith is extremely rude. I can't imagine anyone wanting to do business with him but for the lure of the one million bucks. It now rather looks like Mr. Smith was grandstanding.

All this rather confirms Rossi's view that the only proof that will be accepted by the skeptics is commercial sale of reactors.

Email from DGT.
DS is just looking for the scandal, he has no intention to set-up an actual test and be formally/officially engaged. DS has declared the outcome in advance so, what the point to run the actual test of apparent scam. As soon as NDA does not preclude from public release of test-result, DS' NDA complains do look weak...
How do we know what the NDA stops people from publishing?

Tom
There is no universal NDA, each one may be crafted uniquely to satisfy both parties. So, to know the NDA content it should be read. However, until it is not signed there is no legal-reason why the NDA content may not be revealed publicly as soon as it does not contradict to other valid documents (as well if the signed NDA does not preclude to reveal its content to third party). SD demonstrates such nasty attitude so, to keep his mouth under control before the test result is ready, is one of reason I would definitely request to sign NDA before any father involvement with DS (besides apparent IP reasons as well). The bet is about COP-LENR/Defkalion so only info related to COP measurement should be the public matter.

parallel
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Post by parallel »

Dick Smith Reply
February 21, 2012 at 9:44 am

GN I have not contacted any particular experts in relation to this test because I will not be involved due to the secrecy and non disclosure requirements which I do not agree with.

However all is not lost because I will watch with interest and see if my predictions in relation to endless delays pan out. I hope they don’t because I would like to see an answer as soon as possible.

When you consider Rossi claims to have completed his first high output ecat over 3 years ago that heated his factory for the next two years yet a proper test has never been completed as of today’s date.

At that rate DKN will have at least another two years before tests are finalized and there should be a lot more income to that day!
I would like to see a prompt result by I doubt it will happen!


DIck Smith appears to be the con artist here. Defkalion state:
Publication of Protocols and Results

The detailed test protocols will be published by PGDT before any third party test is performed.
Test results may be published by the independent evaluators in the media they choose and in our site, jointly.

Then Mr. Smith backs out. There's a surprise.

Dick Smith Reply
February 21, 2012 at 4:18 pm

You have got me worked out.
Yes I have to admit that after reading the evidence in the believers posts I have realized how wrong I am and how both Rossi and DKN have definitely proved they have high power LENR s and if I go ahead with my challenge I will lose my money.
The fact that I claim I do not want to be drawn into giving them credibility while they take even more money i must admit is just a pathetic excuse ..
And I now realize they must be genuine because there is no evidence that they have ever even tried to take a cent from anyone up front before a proven unit is available .

And as most on this site clearly believe it is now obvious to me I should accept the majority view – sorry I didn’t take more notice at the start.
And as most of you say that my offer was never genuine from the start I suppose I am forced to agree with that too.

In future I will accept the majority view. And it’s clearly now not necessary for any test to go ahead because we all know that the units work as claimed.
I will spend my money in purchasing units and give them away so that poor inventors can keep their factories warm.

Kahuna
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Post by Kahuna »

Dick Smith Reply
February 21, 2012 at 4:18 pm

You have got me worked out.
Yes I have to admit that after reading the evidence in the believers posts I have realized how wrong I am and how both Rossi and DKN have definitely proved they have high power LENR s and if I go ahead with my challenge I will lose my money.
The fact that I claim I do not want to be drawn into giving them credibility while they take even more money i must admit is just a pathetic excuse ..
And I now realize they must be genuine because there is no evidence that they have ever even tried to take a cent from anyone up front before a proven unit is available .

And as most on this site clearly believe it is now obvious to me I should accept the majority view – sorry I didn’t take more notice at the start.
And as most of you say that my offer was never genuine from the start I suppose I am forced to agree with that too.

In future I will accept the majority view. And it’s clearly now not necessary for any test to go ahead because we all know that the units work as claimed.
I will spend my money in purchasing units and give them away so that poor inventors can keep their factories warm.
Aside from its dripping sarcasm and condescension, this quote is pretty ironic as Smith is a big AGW supporter and often cites the Majority of Climatologists’ support for it as proof of it being “settled science” (Not making a statement on AGW here, just Smith's inconsistency).

Too bad about this, I had really hoped both sides could agree on something here. Does not look like Smith tried very hard to me.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Wait, Smith should have tried harder? I mean hello? He is offering 1 million USD of his OWN money and he should be trying harder?
Any sane person should be running in his door for that much money! They should be wating in line out there with their e-cats eager to proof to him that they work as advertized. Instead they talk all sorts of BS and bring all sorts of excuses why they cant do the test and of course they cast doubts on his credibility. Yeah, lets bash the skeptic a bit!
Oh please!

CKay
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Post by CKay »

Kahuna wrote:this quote is pretty ironic as Smith is a big AGW supporter and often cites the Majority of Climatologists’ support for it as proof of it being “settled science”(Not making a statement on AGW here, just Smith's inconsistency).
There is a consensus in climate science for AGW. There is no equivalent consensus amongst scientists that either Rossi's or Defkalion's devices will work (there isn't even a consensus for any kind of cold fusion or LENR - if anything it's rather the reverse).

So, no inconsistency on Smith's part there.
Last edited by CKay on Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CKay
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Post by CKay »

@Those who still believe Rossi and/or DGT have something - at what point will you start entertaining serious doubt?

Kahuna
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Post by Kahuna »

CKay wrote:
Kahuna wrote:this quote is pretty ironic as Smith is a big AGW supporter and often cites the Majority of Climatologists’ support for it as proof of it being “settled science”(Not making a statement on AGW here, just Smith's inconsistency).
There is a consensus in climate science for AGW. There is no equivalent consensus amongst scientists that either Rossi's or Defkalion's devices will work (there isn't even a consensus for any kind of cold fusion or LENR - if anything it's rather the reverse).

No inconsistency on Smith's part.
Not my point at all. This was not about AGW (as I said), its about Smith appealing to majority opion in one case but not the other. Smith was only referring to the opinion of posters on the blog on which he was writting, not the broader acceptance of LENR in the scientific communitiy.

Kahuna
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Post by Kahuna »

Skipjack wrote:Wait, Smith should have tried harder? I mean hello? He is offering 1 million USD of his OWN money and he should be trying harder?
Any sane person should be running in his door for that much money! They should be wating in line out there with their e-cats eager to proof to him that they work as advertized. Instead they talk all sorts of BS and bring all sorts of excuses why they cant do the test and of course they cast doubts on his credibility. Yeah, lets bash the skeptic a bit!
Oh please!
Talk is cheap. The $1 million offer means nothing until the terms are set and it is in escrow. I meant he could have tried harder to come to terms IMO. He seemed to walk away pretty quickly when DGT appeared willing to negoitiate further. That's all I'm saying.

ScottL
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Post by ScottL »

Kahuna wrote:
Skipjack wrote:Wait, Smith should have tried harder? I mean hello? He is offering 1 million USD of his OWN money and he should be trying harder?
Any sane person should be running in his door for that much money! They should be wating in line out there with their e-cats eager to proof to him that they work as advertized. Instead they talk all sorts of BS and bring all sorts of excuses why they cant do the test and of course they cast doubts on his credibility. Yeah, lets bash the skeptic a bit!
Oh please!
Talk is cheap. The $1 million offer means nothing until the terms are set and it is in escrow. I meant he could have tried harder to come to terms IMO. He seemed to walk away pretty quickly when DGT appeared willing to negoitiate further. That's all I'm saying.
According to him, DGT was imposig some form of NDA that he disagrees with at the moment. I'd personally like to see the claimed NDA before making a decision for or against DGT or Dick Smith. I'm willing to bet said NDA will pop up online here shortly.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

Preface: I have not been keeping up with the details across all the different sites:

It seems to me that DS used the resonable request by Defkalion to provide some legally binding documentation and sign an NDA prior to Defkalion jumping thru any hoops.

That DS back out with such a snide posting suggests that he was never honest about the offer in the first place.

What I have read by Defkalion requested an NDA which would allow final results to be posted on whatever site DS wanted. Seems reasonable to me. But DS then harped about "secrecy...". Well, If I had a process that was not yet patented, I might want a bit of secrecy too. But the results would have been publishable. Why does DS want more, other than as an excuse to back out?

Tick, tock, tick...

CKay
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Post by CKay »

Kahuna wrote:its about Smith appealing to majority opion in one case but not the other. Smith was only referring to the opinion of posters on the blog on which he was writting, not the broader acceptance of LENR in the scientific communitiy.
Nonsense.

In the case of AGW you say that Smith appeals to the *scientific* consensus. In the case of LENR there is no such scientific consensus (if anything the consensus is against CF/LENR).

The majority opinion Smith was sarcastically putting down - presumably he was responded to posts on a forum or blog - is not the scientific consensus on the matter.

Thus, as there is no equivalence between the two majorities - one a scientific consensus, the other just opinions on a blog - there is no inconsistency on Smith's part. /shrug

stefanbanev
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Post by stefanbanev »

CKay wrote:@Those who still believe Rossi and/or DGT have something - at what point will you start entertaining serious doubt?
To remain to be a "believer" in scam at this point does require an outstanding determination. It's still very possible that both LENR devices are not quite ready to be called a "product" but likelihood that COP>1 is indeed regularly and routinely observed seems really high.

CKay
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Post by CKay »

stefanbanev wrote: likelihood that COP>1 is indeed regularly and routinely observed seems really high.
Evidence?

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